Carlin EZ Oil Burner issue with Generator

Jamie Hall

Interesting comments, @Leonard . More to think about!

bmics

@Leonard Reliance transfer switch was installed by licensed electrician and checked by another electrician to ensure all was done correctly.
Everything else on the switch works well (sump pump, fridge) on the gen except for the heating system because of the controller.
To confirm, i had turned on the fridge, light and electric fireplace on gen power, then i turned on the heating system on it and that seems to allow the control module on it fire up the furnace without any issues..
Seems my options are comes down to one of the following:

Have fridge and lights run on gen for a little bit then turn on the furnace.
Get an inverter gen
Change the control module on the furnace & test to see its reaction on gen power

bmics

@Leonard Thank you for the info link from smokstak... definitely helpful. I will wait till the spring to try suggested options.

STEVEusaPA

OP, did anyone go thru the onboard diagnostics to see what it revealed.

bmics

@STEVEusaPA not yet.... need to get someone to come do that for me.

STEVEusaPA

I'd be curious to see if it was losing flame (or think it was losing flame) or just wouldn't start.
The instructions are right on it for checking history. Here's the manual:
https://carlincombustion.com/wp-content/uploads/70200-IOM.pdf
Before getting a whole house gen, I ran my house on a gas-powered 6500w Generac-Boiler with all electronic controls-Tekmar, Taco, Honeywell, never had a problem, 2 refrigerators, and even Central AC (just staged the on times of everything).
I did switch the gen so it ran full bore when I was using it so it didn't surge based on load, and never had a problem.
So despite 2 pages of 'power for geeks'-quite interesting even if I didn't understand some of it, I'd check the cycles. If the power is that far off, then either get a better gen, or try some of the above suggestions.
I do know especially with electronic primaries & ignitors, and specifically with Carlin controls, make sure their is a good connected ground from the burner back to the panel/rod.

bmics

@STEVEusaPA the controller turns on the ignition then would shut off just right before its about the start the flame, the module would say something like "Failed to start flame". You are definitely unto something on the loads.. as indicated above, the furnace did start after I had the fridge and electric fire insert turned on, it seems to register the flame and run a cycle.. unfortunately I only ran it for about an hour.
I will definitely check again the connected ground from the burner back to the panel and let you know.

Thank you for sending the Carlin link, I will read up on it.

bmics

@STEVEusaPA thank you for the manual link above, I was able to get into the fault history screen and "Fault Message" was none... which makes sense because the furnace has turned has not had any reported issues in the past 2 weeks.

Leonard

Could you post model numbers of your gen, I'm still interested if it has a capacitor voltage regulator or a real electronic one (spike issue)

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bmics said:

the controller turns on the ignition then would shut off just right before its about the start the flame, the module would say something like "Failed to start flame". .......
.

I don't know how long controller waits for flame to appear before shutting burner off, but if it's much shorter than normal then maybe gen spikes are interfering with timers in controller microprocessor, with end result that controller doesn't wait long enough before shutting down.

Since adding loads to gen fixes things, My guess is gen (possibly a house load , switching power supply maybe) is making voltage spikes that interfere with controller.

For now...... Since would cost extra gasoline $$ to run a LOT of extra loads on gen I'ld experiment with how much of a RESISTIVE load you need to quite the spikes and let controller run.

Maybe you only need 60 -500 watts ? Instead of 1500+ watt space heater.

On some gens it only takes 1-2 INCANDESCENT ~ 60 watt light bulbs let hz meter lock onto a reading. Guessing those hz meters were confused by gen spikes. Maybe same issue as you have.

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I would not get an inverter gen they are $$$$$, and having hi power electronics that run HARD and HOT, some have problems/failures of their own.

I'ld just replace your poorly designed controller with something that's not as fussy about power quality. I'm guessing the techs here know some good ones

If you DIY that likely will be one of cheapest solutions. Power line filter on furnace line might be about same cost, but if spikes get worse as gen ages then problem could come back. Caps deteriorate with age (10-15 years??) , eventually have to be replaced

Kjmass1

ChrisJ said:

We are WAY off topic.



We need to get back to the OPs issue and my opinion is telling him his new generator isn't good enough isn't a good enough answer. There has to be an easy work around.



My boiler with flame rectification works just fine on a cheap Coleman 4kw single cylinder generator from 1992.

How do I turn off email notifications to this thread?

ChrisJ

> @Kjmass1 said:
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> How do I turn off email notifications to this thread?

If you click the star at the top right of the thread you'll unwatch the thread and it'll stop.

Kjmass1

ChrisJ said:

> @Kjmass1 said:

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> How do I turn off email notifications to this thread?



If you click the star at the top right of the thread you'll unwatch the thread and it'll stop.

Weird it wasn’t highlighted yellow. I toggled it we’ll see if that works. Thanks.

Leonard

If couple light bulbs fix spike problem I'ld say done and call it a day.

I wonder how controller is designed. Guessing somewhere it has low power 120V leads supplying just controller electronics ( not hi-amp stuff, motors ect)

Would be nice if could add filter to 120 VAC supplying it. Maybe salvage filter from front end of a desktop computer switching power supply. But you would have to know what your doing, plus check current ratings..

If spikes aren't bad and if had one MIGHT ? get by with just a 120VAC to 120VAC transformer. It's inductance alone MIGHT? filter out enough of the spikes. Would need to be rated for full load drawn by furnace and it's accessorys . Sometimes electricians have used ones cheap, might let you try it.

However changing controller might be an easier cheaper solution, if you don't have transformer hanging around in cellar like I do.

STEVEusaPA

@Leonard, You keep blaming the primary control, but it could be the ignitor, or an ignitor starting to fail and only shows it right now on generator power. That’s why it’s important to read the diagnostic log when there is a lockout.
It’s either failing to ignite, or losing (or think it’s losing) flame.
Let’s figure that out first.

Leonard

Good point, I don't know these fancy controllers,'

Would be good to check ignitor. Also gen voltage could be off and ignitor doesn't like it. gen hz too.

Was just going on early in thread was said these controllers want clean power, From gen site I know cap regulated gens can make unclean power. And I have a feeling this is a cap reg gen. I asked for gen model numbers so I can track that down

Erin Holohan Haskell

Kjmass1 said:

ChrisJ said:

> @Kjmass1 said:

> (Quote)

> How do I turn off email notifications to this thread?



If you click the star at the top right of the thread you'll unwatch the thread and it'll stop.

Weird it wasn’t highlighted yellow. I toggled it we’ll see if that works. Thanks.

@Kjmass1 - Here's how you can edit your notification preferences.
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DYI

As an electrical engineer with a serious hobby of designing and installing hydronic systems for homes I've owned I have also researched portable standby generators. This link describes the problem with non-inverter type generators and the amount of distortion in the AC voltage waveform being produced.

I use a portable Honda inverter generator (EU series) and have confirmed that the distortion level is a small fraction of the level found in conventional generators.

Leonard

Link sounds right about power quality. Not all gens are designed to same power quality, some have low retail target prices they want to meet. So compromises are made, and power quality suffers. Likely same cost pressures for furnace components. Price VS quality.

Some of the better more expensive gens use slanted lamination slot design, brings output closer to a true sin wave ( less THD). But I'm guessing you don't have to go that far for normal well designed loads. Gens are not the all the same, the details determine power quality. Suspect electronic AC voltage reg is good enough, old Onan gens like 6.5 kw NH use a good saturated magnetic field design instead. I don't think that much of cap reg gens.

I designed magnetic motors and sensors. I would guess that if gen used a stronger magnetic field then it might not flat top it's sine wave output as much (make distortion/THD). But that might require larger laminations and more windings, extra cost.

In link guy is nuts about his claim that built-in regulated power supply in furnace would add about $1500 to the price. That price is way out of line . Don't have to condition all power, just the ~ 10-20 watts the semiconductors in load takes ( the controller).

I've designed good DC linear regulator for power supply with just a LM317 chip ( ~ $3 chip, plus little extra for heat sink and mounting). Can put out 1.5 amp which seems plenty for this stuff. They also make higher amp version.

Problem is these days manufactures try to take last few cents out of the design and take out important stuff. So those loads need real clean gen power. Even if controller manufacturer only sells 100,000 units taking only $1 out of each unit makes them $100,000 more profit. So some may do it, and customer suffers with poorly designed junk

bmics

@Leonard here is the Gen's model number 030664A
thank you

bmics

All,
Just got off the phone with a Carlin tech rep and he told me the Controller Module Carlin Pro Max 702005 is not designed to work well on Gen power... Was told to switch to the 70200s model ones made after April 2018. I will be ordering for a replace and get someone to swap it out. Will report back soon after I do a full test on gen power. Stay tuned

Leonard

Sounds like someone called in that controler had problems and manufacturer fixed it on future production units. Kinda like when I called in problems with my alarm panel output current. Par for the course in manufacturing.

bmics said:

...... he told me the Controller Module Carlin Pro Max 702005 is not designed to work well on Gen power... Was told to switch to the 70200s model ones made after April 2018.

Sounds like a typo , but did you really mean 5 and s ?

bmics

@Leonard yes it is a typo "5" should not be there. Sorry, meant 70200 (Old Model), 70200s (New Model)

Leonard

I googalled your gen part number, found a parts list that shows a potted voltage reg. Has cap and a heat sink (likely for electronic chip) so I'm GUESSING it's some version of a real electronic electronic AC voltage reg. I'll post gen model # on gen site and see what experts say. But just that alone doesn't guarantee great power quality. In grand scheme of things this gen is cheap.

Link is a pic of my gen, 7kw Onan 7NHM , came from an RV. I moved a few wires so it could make 120/240 VAC for my house, was 120 only from factory. They are on Craigslist used with low hours at ~ $500 running, ~ $7000 MSRP new. I have not run my 62 year old furnace on it yet, but I don't expect problems. Needs a separate gas tank , but a 5 to 25 gallon jug will do. They have gas pumps, bat start. 5BGM and 7NHM has internal muffler. Very quite at 1800 rpm, not a 3600 rpm screamer.

Onan 7NHM gen
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=FF74CAEDC43CDEC5EC0F74A146DEF6CEB470AC58&thid=OIP.AofIYbe1GNsshzrRTxwrfgHaEN&mediaurl=http://www.airforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=229354&d=1419791732&exph=454&expw=798&q=Onan+7nhm&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=0

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As STEAEusaPA implies would be good idea to check ignition. While on gen power check what arc looks like. Guessing difficult to see arc without taking burner off so maybe set up your own arc gap ( maybe paper clips bent into shape and cut with pliers) , make SURE it's SAME gap distance as burner specs call out. On mine soot on spark gap insulators partially shorted out arc voltage, I had to clean them with tooth paste (fine abrasive)

Also might want to check burner's spark gap, on mine gap electrodes erode as years go by, and needs to be re-gapped.

bmics

@Leonard @STEVEusaPA thank you.

STEVEusaPA

Leonard said:

...
As STEAEusaPA implies ...

You just can't get my name right...lol

When quoting someone just type the "@" symbol (no quotes) and start typing their name, and a pop up list will help you auto-complete.

Leonard

Sorry, I'm a crummy speller and old eyes have issues. I did look at your name couple of times to try to get it right though

Thank you. @ is new to me.

When I post links here they sometimes are VERY long and go on for many lines. I've seen other people "tie" link to one word . How is that done here?

STEVEusaPA

You can make any word a link.
Copy your link to the clipboard, highlight the word, click the link button (little chain icon, paste link, hit ok.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks, @STEVEusaPA!