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Need to replace: Flair RTU 100b connected to White-Rodgers 3 wire zone valves

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coskier
coskier Member Posts: 9
edited February 2020 in THE MAIN WALL
I have a 3 zone boiler/ radiant heat system in my home. The zone valves are White-Rodgers Type 1311-102, 3 wire valves. These are wired into a Flair RTU 100b relay/ transformer that is failing. Had a heating guy come out, and he said that he has to either:
a) pull the 3 wire valves and replace them with 2 wire ones;
b) run an individual relay to each valve.

Either option is going to cost me more than I think it should. For the life of me, I cannot believe that there isn't a suitable replacement for the Flair RTU 100b out there that can work with my boiler and my existing valves.

Any thoughts/ ideas I should be looking at? (I am completely new to this.)

Thank you.

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
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    1. Please edit to remove prices.
    2. I think you can change the actuators without changing the valves to make it a 2 wire valve.
    3. Others may have an idea of a different zone controller you can replace the Fair with or maybe even replace the relays inside.
    coskierErin Holohan Haskell
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    Edited, and thank you.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    I would think either the Taco ZVC-403 or the Caleffi ZVR103 would work. Both will work with 3-wire zone valves.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    Alan - do those have transformers in them? I think that is part of what made the Flair unique. And it is not manufactured anymore.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    Yes, they both do. Personally, I like the Caleffi because it has more options and the transformer is easily replaced if it goes bad.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    I asked the tech about these, and his response was that the zone valves are three wires, but the thermostats are only two - powered open/ powered closed - so those two don't work...
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    Here is how various 3 wire ZVs wire to Caleffi zone relays. Any thermostat should work, standard 2 wire, power stealing or new wiFi types.

    If you have a valve that requires power to open and power to close, wire a RIB relay to the ZV output. That will allow power both open and close.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
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    What is a RIB relay? They just need a spdt relay with a 24v coil, right(one per zone)?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
    edited February 2020
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    mattmia2 said:

    What is a RIB relay? They just need a spdt relay with a 24v coil, right(one per zone)?

    Yes any DT relay. The RIB screws into one of the knockouts on a relay box and makes the wiring clean. They are very affordable also💵
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    coskiermattmia2
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    Thank you Bob, that is helpful.
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    Can the heads/ actuators of the 1311's be replaced without draining the system? Is a WR 1361 the suitable replacement?

    Would that make more sense than keeping the actuators and adding relays to each valve? Assuming the Taco or Caleffi gets installed, of course.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    coskier
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    I don’t know what power on/ off means, but here is the manual for the 1311. https://www.engineeredair.com/parts/M63T48811.pdf

    It also looks like the third valve is a precursor, the Dayton 2E164
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
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    it is really 6 of one, a half dozen of the other.

    I would replace the actuators unless there is some specific reason the valves are power close. the parts will be slightly more but the labor will be more straightforward and the resulting system will be less complex.
    coskier
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,050
    edited February 2020
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    If they aren't power close, you don't need to replace the actuator.

    Just install a new zone valve controller.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    coskier
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    I believe the motor and round valve spool are one piece, so you do need to drain or isolate to change the power head.

    At that point I’d be inclined to change the entire valve

    A Caleffi Z one would be an excellent choice😉
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    SuperTechcoskier
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    I would certainly prefer to just change the zone controller. I don't know how to read the product manual to tell if the valves are power open and close though.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
    edited February 2020
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    From what I could read of the very confusingly written data sheet for the actuator, it appears to be power close.

    Looking at the price of the actuator for those valves compared to a relay, if there are more than 2 or 3 it could get very pricey very quickly. It still would be a cleaner job, but might not be wort the extra cost, I had no idea the actuator for that valve would essentially cost the same as the valve.
    coskier
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    It is a unique zone valve, I think the actuator spins one direction and warp switches stop it in open/ close position
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2coskier
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
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    hot_rod said:

    It is a unique zone valve, I think the actuator spins one direction and warp switches stop it in open/ close position

    That sounded about like what the datasheet was trying to say in about 4 paragraphs.
    coskier
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    Yes, it looks like power open/close.

    If you choose to keep the zone valves, you will have to do something like this:



    You can use the transformer in the zone valve control to power the zone valves.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    coskier
  • coskier
    coskier Member Posts: 9
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    Thanks for all of the input everyone. I have a path to go down now (and I have learned a few things).