Wayne Conversion Burner - Direct fire ignition module problems?

David Toppin_2

Thanks in advance for your help! I have a Weil McLain oil Boiler with a Wayne HSG200 gas conversion burner in it. It has been giving me nuisance lockouts for a few months now, but it always started when I reset it with the main switch. I talked to Wayne, they said most common thing was a dirty flame rod, I replaced it with a new one. It ran for 2 to 3 days without problem, then it started to lockout again. It has gotten to the point where it doesn't start anymore. I can hear spark after it blows for a bit. I think it is the ignition control not sending 24V to the gas valve. The air pressure switch checks out good and I can hear it clicking on when the blower fires up, and I jumped it to be sure. I measure across the gas valve and and only see at most 12V. I measured at the control MV1 to MV2 while it was firing and only see 10V there. I see 27V at the 24V terminal on the controller (Fenwal 05-31). All I could find today (Saturday) was the Honeywell universal and I am looking for the one it calls for in the manual, Honeywell S89F, or the updated Fenwal 35-65. I am wondering if it sounds like my diagnosis is correct and would like to know if you would use one of the two valves I am listing or something else. Wayne also has their own control now it looks like. Pictures at the following link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/toTCLbrb6YgFGhdj7

rick in Alaska

Make sure you have good connections on all the 24 volt outputs, and the grounding is good. I am not familiar with the other controls, but if the connections are good, it sounds like a bad control.
Rick

David Toppin_2

Thank you very much. I have checked the grounds with a mm and they all seem good, and I have wiggled the connections much. Plus sometimes it puts out 24V and sometimes 10 to 12 to the gas valve. I don't understand the sporadic voltage change, but I guess it would have to be the control

David Toppin_2

I should add that I have gotten it to run, but only sporadically. When it does run, 24V is there at the gas valve, but eventually it locks out. Presently it is not restarting. I have ordered a new ignition control, but it won't be here until Wednesday..

David Toppin_2

Just wanted to update in case anyone else has this problem. I tried to get the Wayne control but it was at least a week out, and with no heat that wasn't an option. I purchased the Honeywell S89F1098 on Amazon, wired it up, and the boiler now works fine.

David Toppin_2

I also wanted to say this was a gradual thing. Started with nusiance lockouts and then eventually the boiler just wouldn't fire.

Sydney01

Hi, new here. Searching the web for reasons for my nuisance lockouts on my Wayne gas conversion burner P250AF. Unfortunately my problem wasn't my Honeywell primary control/ignition control. I should have started with cleaning the flame sensor, since I now wasted $130 on the ignition control. I can't send it back because one of the terminal connectors broke off my old one when pulling the wires off. At any rate, my question is pretty basic. How the heck do you get to the flame sensor? I know my way around oil burners but not quite as certain about this one. Considering it's gas, I'm being much more cautious. I'll try to post some photos but from what I can see, I'm guessing, I need to shut the gas off and undo the union. Then I will need to unbolt the gas orifice nuts and set that entire assembly aside. Then I need to unbolt the cover where there are four screws in each corner. I'm assuming this will give me access to the entire part that slides inside the tube and I'll be able to slide that out and clean the flame sensor rod? I started t try to unscrew those bolts and they are extremely tight, to the point that I started to wonder if they aren't meant to come out, hence why I decided to ask here. Of note is that mine seems to lock out in the morning. I've it's now getting worse where I'll restart it, it will fire and then 4 seconds later it cuts the gas off, as though it isn't sensing a flame. Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

Jamie Hall

Before you start taking things apart, check and make sure all your connections -- especially grounding and bonding -- are clean and secure.

Sydney01

Thanks. I have gone over each wire and wiggled, disconnected and reconnected prior to replacing the ignition control. Everything seems clean and secure. At least the connectors I know how to get too. Not sure about the one inside that plugs into the sensor.

Jamie Hall

Grounds! The wires are one thing, but most of those gadgets also require a solid, good ground from the flame sensor back to the control. That won't be a wire -- that will be through various threaded connections between bits and pieces. And there's nothing like some pipe dope or tape to mess it up.

Sydney01

Ok.  It's run fine for at least 7 years now without any sort of maintenance ( which could be the issue haha).  I also haven't taped or used pipe dope on anything.  Could ceramic on electrodes or the flame sensor be cracked?  They could be for all I know because, unlike my previous experience with oil burners, where you unbolt the transformer, flip it back and pull the electrode assembly or Cat sensor out easily, I'm struggling to know exactly how to get to the electrodes and flame rod in this thing.   It seems like I have to disconnect the gas line and the gas orifice just to get to the plate that I'm assuming has the electrodes and flame sensor behind it.  Just seems there should be an easier way. Other designs I've seen have a separate bolt to access the flame sensor without tearing it apart.  I was hoping the OP would see this since he said he replaced his flame rod or sensor and I think he has a similar model to mine.  

Steamhead

Here's the manual:

https://waynecombustion.com/uploads/downloads/Manual_P250AF,_P265F_Gas_Powered_Burners_English.pdf

Sydney01

Thank you for the response and the link.  I did find that on the web as well, before posting about about my problem.  I'll probably try to tackle it tomorrow since it's locking out more and more frequently now.  Hoping it just needs a cleaning.  Although I probably should just replace it while I'm in there considering the hassle it seems I have to go through for something that should really be very simple.  

Steamhead

What boiler is this burner mounted on?

Sydney01

It's a New Yorker. Model is FR-122 I think it's era 1980's

Steamhead

Hmmmm. The original burner would have been either a Beckett AFG, or a Riello. Both are flame-retention burners that can produce a certain amount of static air pressure. That Wayne P250 is not really a flame-retention burner, and its fan cannot produce much static pressure. I've never seen one run well on any boiler from the 1980s forward. Have you done a combustion test on this burner?

If I were replacing that burner, I'd use a Carlin EZ-Gas. It is built much like an oil burner, including being able to pull the drawer assembly out after flipping the ignitor up. Its fan can match the static pressure of the original burner, and the flame pattern is similar using the 9-slot diffuser. Carlin has a specification in their OEM setup manual for your boiler.

If you are not a pro, don't even think of doing this yourself.

Where are you located?

Sydney01

I'm in PA. They ran a test on it when they set it up. I can't remember how many years ago it was but it has to be getting close to 10 years now, it seems. It's run fine ever since. I used to do some HVAC work. I say some because I went to HVAC that really didn't teach a lot but I got some basics. I then worked for an HVAC company for about a year doing mostly only oil burner cleaning and repair. I never really reached any sort of pro status but I used to run the combustion tests on them etc. I don't have a kit so I've never done it on this one but I have cleaned the tubes, smoke pipe and chimney base yearly or bi-yearly there really isn't much if any soot to speak of. It's really been trouble free since they installed it. The only thing I've one since it was installed is replaced the circulator pump. I hate to incur the expense of putting another conversion kit on this boiler because I'm not really sure how much longer I can expect the boiler to last. My hot water coil probably should be changed as well but we've been getting by with it. I was just reading that the life expectancy of a flame sensor is around 5 years. If that's the case, then I'm well beyond that and maybe it does need replaced. My HVAC career was over 25 years ago so things have changed quite a bit. I'm used to Cad cell censors. I have no experience with these sensor rods. Any idea how often cleaning them actually works or is it really just one of those things that get mentioned a lot (like cracked ceramic on the electrode assembly) but rarely is actually the cause of a system not working? But, to your point, I do wish I would have done more research on the replacement burner itself. I got a few estimates and went with the company with a good reputation in my area, so I didn't really even question which burner they were using. I kind of expected they'd almost all be pretty much the same.

Sydney01

Update for anyone, in the future, who has a similar burner and similar questions.  There is no way to access the electrodes oe flame rod without disconnecting the gass line.  Then you can unbolt the orifice (which is explained in the manual), swing it all out of the way and then the four screws in each corner of the panel/plate will let you access the burner tube to slide the entire assembly out.  I cleaned the flame rod thoroughly with steel wool.  It's been a day now and no lockouts, so it's looking good and I'm optimistic that it was just a dirty flame rod causing the lockouts.  
I'll probably put a new one in if it happens again.  I'll update if anything changes and it ends up being a different problem.  Thanks to those who responded with suggestions.

snake1219

HI all, I started this Wayne Conversion burner installed in 2021 during covid when Gas became available. I was intermittently have this burner go into lock out (I would it kick on shut off then kick on again shutoff and then the fan would just stay on). The problem is getting worst because it is starting to happen daily now. I am reading this and it seem like the flame rod may need to be cleaned. Is this something that I do by myself or do I need to call a plumber in. The plumber that installed this for me is no longer around. The 4 screwed that I would have to open the plumber had put a red seal around it because when the boiler kicked on, I would smell gas. Would it be best to replace this Wayne Converter with something else or fix? Is there a site that have instructions? Help would be Great!

mattmia2

EDIT:
Sounds like you need a tech with the right instruments and training to set the burner up properly, sounds like it is locking out because it is intermittently failing to fire because it isn't adjusted properly.

Steamhead

mattmia2 said:

Sounds like you need a tech with the right instruments and training to set the burner up properly, sounds like it is locking out because it is intermittently locking out because it isn't adjusted properly.

This.

@snake1219 , where are you located? What model Wayne burner?

snake1219

I am located in Roxbury Township, NJ The model is P250AF DIN-E ---

When I looked at the ignition control within the control box, the red LED is flashing just once. -- No flame during trial for ignition

What would cause that?