VXT-24 automatic feeder orientation

SteamingatMohawk

At some point in time, I want to replace my existing 20+ year old Hydrolevel VXT-24 feeder (without digital counter) with one that has the counter. Unfortunately the way my piping runs, as you look at the front of the feeder enclosure, the water flow arrow is from left to right.

When I look at the photos of the new feeder with the counter, the valve flow arrow is in the opposite direction.

When I pulled the cover off my unit I realized the entire thing is installed upside down, which makes sense. The stem of the valve is horizontal, so there should be no difference in how the valve works, other than lime buildup and the filter would be pointing angled up instead of down.

The new units have the display mounted on the circuit board, so doing what I have now would make the display upside down. I prefer the display to be right side up.

I looked at how the valve is attached to the feeder enclosure and it looks like there are 12 screw holes in the mounting plate that can allow multiple orientations. There are 3 equally spaced mounting screws. It seems to me it would be a simple task to just disconnect the valve from the mounting plate and reinstall it facing the opposite direction. If this is physically and technically acceptable, it makes the display right side up. (Aside: I am aware of the Utube video on how to take one of these apart.)

I talked to the company and the rep stated they do not recommend reorienting how the valve is attached to the enclosure. I completely understand their position on this solution and assume it is for corporate reasons.

That being said, It seems pretty simple to me that it would work. The electronics would be unaffected.

Does anyone have any suggestions, other than "live with the display upside down, or rerun the piping so you can install the feeder in the as-built configuration" ?

One of the online plumbing supply houses has some good photos of the feeder.

ethicalpaul

I don’t know if you’re referring to this video, but in this one @Gordo flips one just like you need I think

https://youtu.be/8hZ3FjMUlYQ

SteamingatMohawk

I have seen two other videos of Gordo's on the VXT feeder, but not this one. As a matter of fact, the Hydrolevel rep recommended I look at Gordo's videos, but I didn't see this one; I viewed the valve repair one and another shorter one. Thanks.

I haven't attempted to modify my existing unit, but it seems the solenoid might fit just by rotating it so the screw for the solenoid and nylon washer are at the top instead of the bottom. The only issue may be the length of the wires to the solenoid probably would have to be extended and maybe routed around the display. If that is the case, extending the wires seems to be a much simpler task than cannabilizing the solenoid housing. Do you know if there is any reason this won't work?

Gordo

@SteamingatMohawk : Since you are dealing with only 24V, You could mount the control box in any convenient location and proper orientation, and run 18ga. wires to the new solenoid valve. DEMA Engineering does offer a reasonably nice cover for their 443P if you want, (part #41-38, I believe) but you will need to go thru third party vendors for that, since they won't sell to you or me directly. It is weeks away, but not necessary to get the job done.
I mentioned to the folks at Hydrolevel I had a plan to reverse the valve and they asked me to make and post that video. I hope they were not too disappointed.
In no way is it to be construed as the last word.
Please, if you or anyone can figure out an easier and more elegant way to reverse the valve and not go thru a bunch of rigamarole as in the video above, I, we, and the good folks at Hydrolevel are all ears.

SteamingatMohawk

@Gordo Thanks for the quick reply. The key question is whether rotating both the valve and the solenoid, which keeps the same configuration of the three screws, can fit inside the enclosure. If that is the situation, all that may need to be done is nibbling the edge and extending the wires, if they aren't long enough to make it around the display to the terminals. I looked at your video briefly before I wrote my comments above and didn't realize until I watched the entire video how simple and non-destructive it is to remove the two roll pins, and reorient the solenoid.

The guys at Hydrolevel were helpful, but couldn't recommend modifications, as I mentioned above.

By the way, my 20 year old VXT-24 has only two wires to it from the Hydrolevel LWCO, so I need to understand that before I get too far into replacing it.

Gordo

@SteamingatMohawk : Yes, all automatic electronic boiler water feeders now can use three wires to supply power their circuitry.
Two are the supply and return to keep the "new" VXT display lit while the boiler's power supply is on, and the third wire is the "trigger" to call for water. This also allows for the proper operation of the manual feed switch. You *can* just use two wires, but the display would only be lit on a call for water and you could not use the manual feed switch. Best get a length of 18ga 3-wire thermostat cable and wire it in properly. It's not hard. Even I can do it.
I've seen not a few of the new style 3-wire McDonnell/Miller UniMatch feeders wired with the original left-over two wire and at least one new style VXT wired with two-wire cable. Kinda silly, really.
Yes, the process of revering the valve is non-destructive and reversible (except for nibbling clearance notches as outlined above, and that is hidden from view).
I have uploaded another video showing the results of righting an upside down installed VXT. The customer was pleased to discover the feed button which he hadn't known about before!

SteamingatMohawk

@Gordo I took a photo of my feeder and noticed the solenoid is rotated as you show. Maybe one of these days I will slow down and pay attention to the details better. In your video, I measured the space available on the right side of the enclosure (by the manual feed button) and it seems like there is enough room to fit the solenoid with the spade connectors. Since you have a VXT "on the bench", are you willing to check it out and let me know if it will fit and if the wires are long enough? Thanks.

In your videoI noticed the gage glass drain rig. My gage glass has a small, I think, 1/8" pipe plug on a tee.

I would rather have a drain instead of having to deal with hot dirty water when I drain the gage glass using the plug. I have also removed the lower isolation valve bonnet/stem, which isn't all that difficult or messy. But then I can run a wire through the opening to make sure the small opening for the stem is clear.

Any suggestions?

Hap_Hazzard

If you put a full-port drain valve where your plug is, you can fit a bottle brush through it, except that the valve stem is in the way. I don't know how you can remove that without draining the boiler down to that level though. It's much easier to just shut the glasscocks and take the glass tube out and clean it.

SteamingatMohawk

If I suspect the gageglass is not accurate, I disassemble the bottom valve to flush it and use the wire to make sure it is clean. The opening where the seat is is pretty small, so it tends to hold the rust, etc. Draining at the plug gets the pipe completely flushed. I wish I could find a valve that will fit the 1/8" pipe connection. I haven't looked closely at the branch of the tee to see if there's a reducer between the tee and the plug. That possibility just occurred to me.

I also remove the glass and clean it whenever it is too dirty.

Hap_Hazzard

Don't you have a ¼" petcock on the bottom of your lower glasscock? That's where I put the full-port ball valve on mine. I used one of these:

https://www.harborfreight.com/14-in-full-port-ball-valve-63553.html

Gordo

@SteamingatMohawk : In regards to your question as to if the solenoid terminals will fit in the space near the feed switch, yes it will.... but you will still have to nibble the case to get the screw to fit and further, you will have a bit more trouble to get to the screw to tighten it down. Then, after all that, you will still have to extend the wires to get to the solenoid.

SteamingatMohawk

@HAP_HAZZARD, I'll check that out too. Thanks.

@Gordo Thanks, it sounds like the screw would go at the 12 o'clock position and the solenoid would not have to be rotated in the bracket.

Would realigning the solenoid in the bracket make it easier to get to the screw at either 4 or 8 o'clock positions? That seemed pretty easy in your video.

Doing the wiring is easy.

Gordo

@SteamingatMohawk : Yes, it would. I would recommend the 4 o'clock position as it would be much easier to tighten then the 12 o'clock, and require no wire modification to boot.

SteamingatMohawk

I examined my non-digital VXT-24 today and it looks like it might not be all that difficult to spring the bracket a bit and rotate the coil without removing the roll pins. Have you ever tried it?

Gordo

@SteamingatMohawk : Yes, I've tried it. I've been working on VXTs for 15 years. Do what you want.

SteamingatMohawk

@Hap_Hazzard Today, I looked at the gaugeglass bottom valve and it does have the petcock, so I can use the ball valve. I'm a bit embarrassed that after 20 years of owning, operating and maintaining the boiler I didn't connect the dots. That being said, as I mentioned above the seat opening for the gageglass valve is pretty small and the plug in the tee can drain out more of the sediment. That's probably why it is there, even though the installation manual shows a fitting that is not a tee.

Another annoyance defeated. Awesome!!

SteamingatMohawk

@Gordo, regarding the solenoid, I think if I try springing the bracket, I will do it when the old one comes out, so if it doesn't work, I won't mess up the new one. Thanks for the caution.

SteamingatMohawk

Over the summer I replaced the VXT. I did the nibble the case technique and had only one problem. I thought I was very careful reassembling the valve plug and spring in the housing, but somehow they must have gotten hung up and did not move.

I found out when I first tried the feeder multiple times and the valve did not open. I tried the solenoid from the removed unit and it also did not work. After talking to Hydrolevel, a rep with lots of experience suggested to me that the plug was hung up and I had electrically damaged the solenoid. I took the VXT apart, found no damage and reassembled it. With the new solenoid it did not work. With the removed solenoid it did.

I took resistance readings on the two solenoids and, if I remember correctly, the new solenoid read 24 ohms and the removed one read 18 ohms. I had no clue if this was enough to make a difference. My guess is the higher resistance allowed less current flow resulting in less magnetic force to move the stuck plug.

In any event, I tried to get a solenoid from Hydrolevel and gave up. I knew the make of the valve and searched the internet and found a company that sells the valves with solenoids. They also sell only the solenoids. I got a replacement for much lower than I could find elsewhere.

When I received the solenoid, I installed it, tested the unit and it has been working fine since.

I don't know if anyone else messed up like I did, but it might be worthwhile if the video is ever updated to caution people watching it to be extremely careful at reassembly and if it doesn't work on the first try, and the wiring is correct, don't keep trying hoping for a different result.

Gordo

I just checked the ohm readings of 7@ 24v DEMA 443p valve solenoid coils in our stock, and they seem to be about 22 ohms plus or minus 1 ohm.

SteamingatMohawk

That's the dilemma. Why the new coil didn't work after I disassembled and reassembled the valve, but the old one did is beyond me so far. Maybe in the middle of some night I might wake up with a plausible answer.

For now I still have all three coils, the replacement I bought from Kleen-Rite (carwash supplier), the new one that didn't work and the old one from the 20 year old VXT.

Gordo

On your 20 year old VXT, is the brass valve marked "Invensys" & "S-45" or "DEMA 443P"?

SteamingatMohawk

DEMA

Gordo

Ah well, there goes that theory.

SteamingatMohawk

What's the theory? All I can surmise is that the plug being stuck changed the magnetic interaction between it and the coil, reducing the impedance or reluctance ( I can't remember the technical term) thus allowing more current to flow heating up the wiring, damaging the coil and increasing the resistance. Once the current flow was reduced and the coil damaged, the magnetic flux may have been reduced such that when I reassembled the valve, the coil didn't have enough strength to move the freed up plug.

I'm a mechanical engineer by education, not an electrical engineer, so it's all guess work. But trying to get to the true root cause eventually is good for my brain (however much remains functional).

ethicalpaul

Reactance maybe. When I was an arcade tech and a pinball flipper solenoid would get stuck on, it would boil the plastic housing. What a mess

Gordo

Twenty years ago, Hydrolevel was using the S-45 solenoid valve (then owned by Invensys), then circa 2004, IIRC, they switched to DEMA's 443p. They both do the same thing, but there are enough subtle differences between the two valves that might make them not entirely parts interchangeable.
I have a video on some of the differences.

SteamingatMohawk

Both are DEMA to my recollection. Identification information on the coils is identical, but when I am at the house, I will try to remember to look at them.

Hap_Hazzard

ethicalpaul said:

Reactance maybe. When I was an arcade tech and a pinball flipper solenoid would get stuck on, it would boil the plastic housing. What a mess

The DEMA valve solenoids have steel sleeves through the core to prevent the coil from distorting and hanging up the plunger, but the sleeve is in two parts, each anchored to the bracket, so a bent bracket might cause the plunger to stick.

Rethinking this, the plunger itself is inside a metal tube that fits inside those sleeves, so that tube would have to be bent, which is pretty unlikely.

Hap_Hazzard

SteamingatMohawk said:

That's the dilemma. Why the new coil didn't work after I disassembled and reassembled the valve, but the old one did is beyond me so far. Maybe in the middle of some night I might wake up with a plausible answer.

Are both of the solenoid coils blue? If you got a green one, it's 120v, but it should also have the voltage printed on it.

SteamingatMohawk

The sleeves inside the coil are a pretty neat design, with them sized such that you can push them in and simply remove the coil from the bracket. Then on reassembly tap each one in from the end. I was impressed with the idea. (Maybe too easily impressed).

The coil is not green and the markings on all three indicate 24V.

What I don't understand is why Hydrolevel didn't make the unit easily reoriented.

Hap_Hazzard

SteamingatMohawk said:

What I don't understand is why Hydrolevel didn't make the unit easily reoriented.

What could be easier?

Seriously, though, I thought they'd designed it to make it easy to change the orientation by drilling all those extra holes in the mounting plate, but I was unpleasantly surprised the first time I actually did it.

SteamingatMohawk

It's probably because they used an off the shelf design that had the triangular pattern vs square or diamond (square rotated 45 degrees) and didn't worry about it, most likely because the original design didn't have the digital readout and it was no big deal to install the valve and enclosure upside down and just put the cover on upside down on the upside down enclosure, which makes the cover upside down squared.....or upside up!!