Boiler making noises that wake me up in morning and keep me awake after pressure tank replacement

blackedboiler

For starters. Boiler is way over 19 years old, even before I moved in. Found out that water pressure reducer and pressure relief valve were bad for years and didn't know it. House water pressure is 65 PSI.

Again never had any issues, and old PSI and tempurature gauge had PSI pegged and damaged, but figured was just old. Replaced with new one years ago and didn't catch on that PSI was pegged and got stuck in most high setting.

Again, all worked perfect with ole school honeywell circle thermostat with mercury, and honeywell battery powered stat for all time I have lived here. No issues. I would drain boiler each year and refill, again no issues.

Then bought a Nest E thermostat. First one went bad. Exchanged and got new one. And yes common was hooked to it for power. Lucky had an extra un used wire to connect to common on 24Vac transformer.

Well the stat called for heat for way too long, and since pressure reducer was old and bad, along with pressure relief valve, the only other thing to give was the tank. It was quite in the house, put ear on floor and heard drip in crawl space.

The parts were so old, they were made by Thrusher out of Peru, Indiana.

In a nut shell, changed tank out first, and added new PSI and temp gauge. That is when noticed PSI was to high and figured the Pressure reducer was bad after tank was already installed and boiler back in use.

Changed reducer, got pressure down, and had some old leaky valves replaced.

My boiler and water heater access is from an outside door to a closet, so difficult to get access and in the elements if need worked on or maintance.

Now after all replaced, it makes sounds that wake me up in the morning, then can't go back to sleep. When house is quite, I live in country, and is gas boiler, reverberates through house.

Pipes make there usual expansion dings as normal when water heats up, but boiler all of a sudden started making the sounds almost overnight.

Had a boiler guy come out for plumbing and he said was buildup from hard water making those sounds and added some tratment when he replaced the pressure blow valve.

I don't see how can instantly start making sounds with in just 2 days or so.

I took a video so can see and hear. I noticed from video that PSI fluctuates slightly with needle when gas valve is on and water temp starts to get hot.

Any ideas? Different google search's has different ideas. So am just posting link to youtube vid for exact sounds like you were seeing and looking with own ears and eyes.

Thanks for any feedback. Driving me crazy.

https://youtu.be/HQqYz1sqJc0

Zman

Does the system have a history of leaks?
Does the noise change when you lower or increase the pressure?
Your operating temp is pretty low, what temp is the boiler set to?Is it reaching that temp once it gets going? Does the noise get worse as the boiler temp increases?
Does the air vent on the scoop appear to be clear?
Your circulator is mounted incorrectly. I would be a little surprised if that was the cause of the noise, anything is possible.

icy78

If only the pump is running, and NOT the boiler, does the noise still occur?

hot_rod

To me it sounds like peculation, the sound of water being heated thru a layer of scale. If you have added water, especially hard water you probably should de-lime the boiler.

Are you sure the circulator is moving fluid? I'd expect more noise if the boiler were running without any or inadequate flow.

Plenty of delivers available Rhomar, Fernox, Hercules Sizzle to mention a few

Run with a cleaner for several days, flush and add good, low hardness low TDS water and some conditioner.

blackedboiler

Zman said:

Does the system have a history of leaks?
Does the noise change when you lower or increase the pressure?
Your operating temp is pretty low, what temp is the boiler set to?Is it reaching that temp once it gets going? Does the noise get worse as the boiler temp increases?
Does the air vent on the scoop appear to be clear?
Your circulator is mounted incorrectly. I would be a little surprised if that was the cause of the noise, anything is possible.

The operating temp was still rising, I caught it when it first started making the noise in its cycle.

I'll check what temp it is set to as I have to go outside the house and into another door in the elements, and see what temp it gets up to when the either the aquastat or thermostat shuts off the gas valve.

YES, the noise reaches its peak noise as the water gets warmer and the flame is warming the water. Once house temp is reached burners are shut off from stat and then noise goes away.

After temp is reached from stat, burners shut off. But circulator pump keeps circulating not making any noise. Some one else also mentioned wrong pump orientation.

Thanks for more direct questions to ask and answer.

blackedboiler

icy78 said:

If only the pump is running, and NOT the boiler, does the noise still occur?

No. Once the boiler stops running, gas valve closed from stat, noise goes away as flame is no longer heating the water.

blackedboiler

hot_rod said:

To me it sounds like peculation, the sound of water being heated thru a layer of scale. If you have added water, especially hard water you probably should de-lime the boiler.

Are you sure the circulator is moving fluid? I'd expect more noise if the boiler were running without any or inadequate flow.

Plenty of delivers available Rhomar, Fernox, Hercules Sizzle to mention a few

Run with a cleaner for several days, flush and add good, low hardness low TDS water and some conditioner.

When I replaced OLD ceramic coated horizontal tank and replaced with new 12 PSI tank, had boiler guy replace pressure relief valve and put new water pressure reducer on, he added a bottle of fluid to the system. I've always had hard water and never had any issues in the past.
Draining and adding water in every year for maintance, never had any noise issues even close to what is now, and it started over a about two day period, and not gradually.

Yes the circulator is moving fluid cause the house is staying warm, and i hand felt every radiator in house to make sure was getting heat also. I have 3 zones. One is for a small radiator for garage so it doesn't get below freezing in there.

blackedboiler

Another update. Someone else had mentioned that the heat exchanger might not be completly full also.

There is a drain on the boiler it self. I usually hook a hose up, let water flow thru system bypassing the water pressure reducer to flush out system, then shut valve off and let the water fill back up.

hot_rod

blackedboiler said:

hot_rod said:

To me it sounds like peculation, the sound of water being heated thru a layer of scale. If you have added water, especially hard water you probably should de-lime the boiler.

Are you sure the circulator is moving fluid? I'd expect more noise if the boiler were running without any or inadequate flow.

Plenty of delivers available Rhomar, Fernox, Hercules Sizzle to mention a few

Run with a cleaner for several days, flush and add good, low hardness low TDS water and some conditioner.

When I replaced OLD ceramic coated horizontal tank and replaced with new 12 PSI tank, had boiler guy replace pressure relief valve and put new water pressure reducer on, he added a bottle of fluid to the system. I've always had hard water and never had any issues in the past.
Draining and adding water in every year for maintance, never had any noise issues even close to what is now, and it started over a about two day period, and not gradually.

Yes the circulator is moving fluid cause the house is staying warm, and i hand felt every radiator in house to make sure was getting heat also. I have 3 zones. One is for a small radiator for garage so it doesn't get below freezing in there.

I would not advise draining and adding water every year, you add scaling minerals and O2 every time. With a sealed closed system it is best to fill with low mineral water and forget it.

Really no harm in running a cleaner, it will improve efficiency by removing any scale build up from the HX surfaces.

Is there a small auto air vent on top of the boiler? It would rid the block of any trapped air, assuming it works.

HVACNUT

At the 1:30 mark, you can see the pressure fluctuating. Cavitation.

Can you post some still pics of the whole system?
Not too close.

blackedboiler

hot_rod said:

blackedboiler said:

hot_rod said:

To me it sounds like peculation, the sound of water being heated thru a layer of scale. If you have added water, especially hard water you probably should de-lime the boiler.

Are you sure the circulator is moving fluid? I'd expect more noise if the boiler were running without any or inadequate flow.

Plenty of delivers available Rhomar, Fernox, Hercules Sizzle to mention a few

Run with a cleaner for several days, flush and add good, low hardness low TDS water and some conditioner.

When I replaced OLD ceramic coated horizontal tank and replaced with new 12 PSI tank, had boiler guy replace pressure relief valve and put new water pressure reducer on, he added a bottle of fluid to the system. I've always had hard water and never had any issues in the past.
Draining and adding water in every year for maintance, never had any noise issues even close to what is now, and it started over a about two day period, and not gradually.

Yes the circulator is moving fluid cause the house is staying warm, and i hand felt every radiator in house to make sure was getting heat also. I have 3 zones. One is for a small radiator for garage so it doesn't get below freezing in there.

I would not advise draining and adding water every year, you add scaling minerals and O2 every time. With a sealed closed system it is best to fill with low mineral water and forget it.

Really no harm in running a cleaner, it will improve efficiency by removing any scale build up from the HX surfaces.

Is there a small auto air vent on top of the boiler? It would rid the block of any trapped air, assuming it works.

Yes. There is a new air vent installed. When letting water in and or out, you can hear the sound of air at the device.

blackedboiler

> @HVACNUT said:
> At the 1:30 mark, you can see the pressure fluctuating. Cavitation.
>
> Can you post some still pics of the whole system?
> Not too close.

Here are some Picts on my phone. The first ones are newer with some old showing the old tank.

BillyO

OMG

blackedboiler

It is very old. And opening and closing outside door makes it look worse because of the elements.

blackedboiler

Just had a reputable ole school boiler and plumber guy take another look. Is just kettling from over 50 years of age and hard water. Gonna need more than just one treatment than the one put in lil over a week or so ago.

Boiler still works great! Don't need a new one. Just since is in outside door to get to it, the elements over the years has made it look worse than it is. Could clean it up though.

Can't judge it by its cover. Might have it rebuilt next year and manually clean the heat exchanger.

SuperTech

Piping isn't the greatest. Generally we strive to pipe stuff straight and level. It should have been really easy to do with the PEX tubing. Pumping into the expansion is never a good idea either.

BillyO

I haven't slept either after seeing those pics

blackedboiler

SuperTech said:

Piping isn't the greatest. Generally we strive to pipe stuff straight and level. It should have been really easy to do with the PEX tubing. Pumping into the expansion is never a good idea either.

I did the copper piping and installed the new tank. Boiler guy did the pex with what he could from the original piping, and I rigged up the water pressure reducer piping. Was originally horizontal, but way to close to the wall, and can see original old piping sloping down that didn't work well with being horizontal.

What do you mean by pumping into the expansion? If you mean the tank, the original horizontal tank was above everything. I did what I could to re-create how the tank was installed with the room I had between the walls.

I also had to remove the old unused water softner so the guy could install the pex or he called it a different better type similar. Not sure the name of it though.

metrosilo

Correct me if I'm wrong, all the air on the scoop is going directly into the tank?? Old expansion tanks didn't have bladders (which is why they hung from the ceiling). When installing new one, you generally come off the bottom of the scoop and have an auto Air vent on top. Do you still have the manual for that boiler?

blackedboiler

metrosilo said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, all the air on the scoop is going directly into the tank?? Old expansion tanks didn't have bladders (which is why they hung from the ceiling). When installing new one, you generally come off the bottom of the scoop and have an auto Air vent on top. Do you still have the manual for that boiler?

It's a National - US 99 series boiler. I’d lucky if found one online, had other manuals when moved in 19 years ago, but not manual for boiler.

As shown in the picture, there is no way of fitting a new tank under the air scoop as the original install before I was born had pipes going up.

SuperTech

I believe I see an air vent right next to the piping for the expansion tank. If it is one then the way the tank is piped is ok. Generally it's best practice to have the circulator pumping away from the expansion tank for best possible air elimination in the system. If it was my boiler I would replace the old air scoop with a microbubble resorber air eliminator and install the water feed valve and expansion tank underneath it.

hot_rod

Where to start, where to finish?

Circulator is mounted improperly, air scoop is also, acting as a high point vent for the boiler basically, PONPC should be sorted out, sounds like it needs descaling, does the home even need that much boiler?

blackedboiler

> @hot_rod said:
> Where to start, where to finish?
>
> Circulator is mounted improperly, air scoop is also, acting as a high point vent for the boiler basically, PONPC should be sorted out, sounds like it needs descaling, does the home even need that much boiler?

Not sure what PONPC means. But boiler is older than I am and approx 1550 square foot home with 3 zones. It has first of few descaling liquid poured in. Was installed before my time.

hot_rod

blackedboiler said:

> @hot_rod said:

> Where to start, where to finish?

>

> Circulator is mounted improperly, air scoop is also, acting as a high point vent for the boiler basically, PONPC should be sorted out, sounds like it needs descaling, does the home even need that much boiler?



Not sure what PONPC means. But boiler is older than I am and approx 1550 square foot home with 3 zones. It has first of few descaling liquid poured in. Was installed before my time.

Just wondering, maybe like you are, how much should be upgraded, and at what $$ and benefit.

blackedboiler

> @SuperTech said:
> I believe I see an air vent right next to the piping for the expansion tank. If it is one then the way the tank is piped is ok. Generally it's best practice to have the circulator pumping away from the expansion tank for best possible air elimination in the system. If it was my boiler I would replace the old air scoop with a microbubble resorber air eliminator and install the water feed valve and expansion tank underneath it.

The air vent is below the tank on the blueish manifold. Brass in color. Straight copper pipe from top of scoop to 90 angle to the tank. Didn’t think they made my old tank any more so got the air bladder tank. Here is my old tank.

SuperTech

Yeah that's an old compression tank. Nothing wrong with them, just have to drain some water out periodically to maintain the air cushion for expansion. I can't say I have ever seen anyone install a modern diaphragm tank way up high like that, I would like to see it below the air scoop. PONPC is the point of no pressure change, the expansion tank location. Pressure changes in the system when the circulator is energized, higher pressure on the outlet side and lower on the inlet. That's why it's best practice to have the expansion tank, air eliminator and water feed valve piped on the supply of the boiler, where the water is hottest.
It's also highly recommended to install the circulator pumping away from this point of no pressure change, that way you are using the circulator to help aid in air elimination.