Jacobus steam radiator vents - what gives?

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

Since we discussing quality.

I've never known @Gordo to be full of s........beans.
The quality of his word tends to be high.

Just saying.

I agree. That's why I'm feeling like we're talking about two different products. What he's saying is literally unbelievable based on what I've seen, but based on what I know about him, I have to take what he says seriously. I really want to get to the bottom of this.

@ethicalpaul, I think you mentioned that you were considering a MoM #1 vent? That might be interesting, because it seems to use the same construction method as the Gorton vents. The case is soldered together instead of crimped.

gfrbrookline said:

@Hap_Hazzard has a valid point, I have had a Big Mouth, Gorton and MOM fail. I contacted Barnes and Jones and Gorton for replacements and both companies stood by their product and sent replacements. I did not do so with the MOM because of the price point and was suspect of the plastic bladder and crimping.

I wouldn't describe the float as a plastic bladder. It's a solid piece of plastic. In my opinion this is more reliable, because a hollow float can leak, but a piece of plastic won't change its specific gravity.

gfrbrookline

@Hap_Hazzard , I stand corrected, did not realize it was solid plastic.

Hap_Hazzard

Well, you've probably never dissected one. I have this weird obsession with taking apart things that stop working. Even if there's no way to fix it, I need to try to understand what went wrong.

nde

The HD gorton/jacobus knock offs are called "plumbers edge" at least here. They are made in China but no idea who is behind them. HDs here also have rebadged USAV verticals under the "plumbers edge" brand also Chinese produced. At 10/piece I can only assume you get what you pay for.

I have gortons and hoffmans running for 10 years (6 month heating season) without problems. Those replaced USAV (Taiwan versions) which were hit/miss. Never tried moms....I dig that all steamed up youtube channel, lots of useful stuff there.

Hap_Hazzard

nde said:

The HD gorton/jacobus knock offs are called "plumbers edge" at least here. They are made in China but no idea who is behind them. HDs here also have rebadged USAV verticals under the "plumbers edge" brand also Chinese produced. At 10/piece I can only assume you get what you pay for.

Actually, SupplyHouse sells the MoMs for $7.45. Even at that price I expect things to work. I hate those USAV vents, btw. Not only are they junk, but I hate it when someone puts "USA" on a product that's made overseas. I'm not one of those who thinks all Chinese products are garbage (I have an iPhone, y'all.), but just don't misrepresent a product's country of origin. It may not meet the legal definition of fraud, but it's fraud.

Anyway, I think at least part of the picture is starting to emerge: Home Depot is selling cheap knock offs instead of the Maid O' Mist vents they advertise in their online catalog, and, as a result, they're getting blamed for bad products they had nothing to do with. If I were them I'd be taking somebody to court, or at least sending them a cease and desist order to remove their vents from their online catalog if they're not, in fact selling them. There's probably some legal action that consumers who've been harmed could take. At least they should be demanding refunds.

@motoguy128, I believe you said you'd had some correspondence with someone at Jacobus. Would you feel comfortable contacting them about this to see if they're aware of it?

Hap_Hazzard

BobC said:

@motoguy128 Could you post that MOM drill size info?

Here's what I've got. I got the vent sizes from the attached PDF.

model   port size   drill size
   4:      0.0400          #60
   5:      0.0700          #50
   6:      0.0937        3/32"
   C:      0.1285          #30
   D:      0.1850          #13

nde

I don't think there is anything unusual going on, HD is just doing what they do....find the cheapest supplier. "Plumbers Edge" is a trademark registered to the Hajoca Corporation and many of the current HD plumbing supplies are this brand.

motoguy128

I’ll See what I Can find out.

Bio

Metal or plastic?, the best radiator air vent is the one that satisfies the thermostat and never sees steam but on design days

Precaud

ethicalpaul said:

The MoM are chromed brass. They even have a #1 main vent that I'm going to try.

Well I may try one sooner than later. Today I received a box of stuff ordered from Supplyhouse, including a Gorton #1 main vent. Installed it, and it is defective out of the box. Doesn't close. So I'll return it and am thinking of getting the MoM version instead. The MoM #5 I received works fine. Amazing what a few hundredths of an inch can do to rebalance the radiator outputs...

Which came first? Jacobus or Gorton? I have to find out some time.

That would be interesting to find out...

BobC

A few years ago I bought 3 maid o mist vents and when I went to install it I found it had a straight not tapered thread, all three vents were the same. I fixed them by running them through a 1/8" die to put the taper on them.

I contacted Maid o Mist and they went through there stock and said everything was fine, they offered to replace the vents but I had already fixed them. That was 3-4 years ago and the vents are working fine.

I think they did everything they could to make sure they didn't have any manufacturing problems. BTW Jacobus (Maid o Mist) patented that vent in 1927 and Gorton copied them - to bad they didn't stick with the replaceable orifice design aspect on the Gortons.

Bob

Precaud

The MoM vent I received yesterday doesn't have tapered threads. Made it a bit tricky to install on a radiator that sits 2-1/2 inches away from a bathtub...

Thanks for the info re: Jacobus patent.

Mark N

https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/gorton-1.pdf

This is the Gorton and Lidgerwood catalog from 1926. Take a look at the Air relief valve. According to the Maid o Mist website they opened in 1932. Edward Jacobus probably worked for Gorton and Lidgerwood or licensed it to them.

Mark N

Using the patent number stamped on a MoM vent I have Pat #2,400,297, I looked it up. Edward Jacobus Thermostatic Vent Valve for Radiators Filed Aug 15, 1944.

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=02400297&IDKey=ADB1CBD5D581 &HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%26Sect2=HITOFF%26d=PALL%26p=1%26u=%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsrchnum.htm%26r=1%26f=G%26l=50%26s1=2400297.PN.%26OS=PN/2400297%26RS=PN/2400297

This patent references patent 1,547,652

Chris_L

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/41/31/84/b3b134560e763d/US1635790.pdf

That's a Jacobus patent from 1927. (I didn't see any mention of Maid O Mist in it.)

But note that this vent is slightly different from the one in the catalog. It uses a small ball in the outlet as a check valve to hold a vacuum.

archibald tuttle

So color me head scratching. I'm not sure whether bladder or solid is my question on the plastic, but i didn't think radiator vents were float vents to begin with.

Mark N

Here's patent 1,547,653 filed in 1923.

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=01547652&IDKey=E24399D274F8 &HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%26Sect2=HITOFF%26d=PALL%26p=1%26u=%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsrchnum.htm%26r=1%26f=G%26l=50%26s1=1547652.PN.%26OS=PN/1547652%26RS=PN/1547652

Hap_Hazzard

archibald tuttle said:

So color me head scratching. I'm not sure whether bladder or solid is my question on the plastic, but i didn't think radiator vents were float vents to begin with.

I think probably most of them are. In the Gorton and Maid O' Mist style vents, the float sits on a bimetal strip that bends when it gets hot and pushes the top of the float into a valve seat at the top of the vent. In the bullet-shaped vents, the float sits on top of a capsule containing an alcohol that flashes to vapor when it gets hot and, again, pushes the float into a seat. The Heat-Timer Varivalve vents are one popular radiator vent that does not include a float, but there are others. There are also a few main vents that don't have floats.

Mark N

Here's a patent for a radiator vent from Jesse L. Jacobus.

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=01703673&IDKey=F80814FDFB82 &HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%26Sect2=HITOFF%26d=PALL%26p=1%26u=%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsrchnum.htm%26r=1%26f=G%26l=50%26s1=1703673.PN.%26OS=PN/1703673%26RS=PN/1703673

Mark N

Check this one out.

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=02494293&IDKey=9ACE8547D767 &HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%26Sect2=HITOFF%26d=PALL%26p=1%26u=%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsrchnum.htm%26r=1%26f=G%26l=50%26s1=2494293.PN.%26OS=PN/2494293%26RS=PN/2494293

This is a patent by Joseph Gorton. Edward Jacobus's patents 1,547,652 and 2,400,297 are referenced.

archibald tuttle

@Hap_Hazzard

I was just confused by the reference to "float". I get that there is condensate in the system and there are float traps that do use a ball as a float, but whether plastic or metal the function of the balls in these vents is not as floats insofar as i can see.

in the good ole days and various models that still use this technology, you had a copper or brass bladder with volatile fluid that when it boiled popped a little bigger with the pressure to close the seal. i see what you are saying about the bimetal element doing that job now and the ball simply transmitting that force to a seal.

rube goldberg yes, float no.

Chris_L

@Mark N Thanks for that 1950 Gorton patent. That patent number is on the Gorton vent I have my bathroom , which is about 20 years old. (Though I am still not sure how it differs significantly from my Maid O Mist Jacobus vents or why I should have paid 3 times as much for it.)

The old vents I really like are the ones with the small brackets on them to screw the vents to radiator to keep people (kids) from stealing them to sell for scrap. I guess we've made some progress in that regard at least.

Dan_NJ

Precaud said:

Well I may try one sooner than later. Today I received a box of stuff ordered from Supplyhouse, including a Gorton #1 main vent. Installed it, and it is defective out of the box. Doesn't close. So I'll return it and am thinking of getting the MoM version instead. The MoM #5 I received works fine.

Interesting, I had a new Gorton #D fail on me right out of the box last month and think the new #C I put on the radiator is closing slowly or incompletely. Makeup water has gone up since I added that #C. I'll give it another week and swap it out for a MoM or a pair of Ventrite #1 on a tee.

ethicalpaul

OK those charts are awesome

Dan_NJ

ethicalpaul said:

OK those charts are awesome

This is the second heating season that I have reasonably accurate numbers for makeup water (since adding the graduation marks on the sight glass).

Last season's makeup water was all over the place. I replaced a Dole 1033 that was stuck closed on one rad and in doing so noted a leak at that radiator fill valve, corrected at start of this season. I expected the Gallons per Heating Degree day to flatten out once that was fixed and it has, along with a reduction in makeup water overall. Here is last year's graph

random12345

I know this is an old thread. I just got a brand new angled MOM vent with all the different sizes. Continues to make a bit of gurgling sound even after the radiator is completely hot. I also put a kleenex over the top and there was a tiny bit of steam escaping. Very little but still enough to hear and see with this test. Is this normal behavior or should it be completely silent once the steam hits it? My other vent-rites aren't like this. Trying to figure out if I just got a bad vent or not. If so, I'll give it one more shot and buy another.

delcrossv

@random12345
If the vent is closed, it should be completely closed- no leaks or steam.

random12345

That's my thinking as well. Do you have any of these? Do any of them leak like this?

gfrbrookline

The might need to be cleaned which you can do by boiling them in white vinegar or just replace it, it should shut completely.