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Roth tank with overhead line.

rolandoLI
rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
Im new here but always reading the posts, i have a new Boiler installed little over a year ago, my oil tank is buried underground very old, i have friends in the construction business so one day i got a call about a brand new Roth tank so i went to got it for free. got the guy installed a single overhead line connected to a tigerloop 100 gallons on tank purge the lines and got the boiler running and left. a noticed every time boiler runs now the chamber on tigerloop FOAMS a lot, text it the guy he says is normal. it never did that before with the buried tank im afraid im going to loose prime and boiler will stop running on the coldest night.

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Comments

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    edited December 2019
    Could be air from a loose fitting or bad flare (better not be any compression fittings), could be a restriction and high vacuum, which you can check with a vacuum gauge.
    It could be both.
    Is that Teflon tape on the fittings? Not allowed.
    I'd go around while it's running and start checking, tightening (but not over tightening) all the connections, to see if it helps.

    After initial purge, you shouldn't see anything (or maybe a little movement/flow) going on in the bowl while it's running.

    Can you get a few pictures from farther back so we can see the entire install?
    steve
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    Thanks for replying, i believe it is Teflon..
    i will upload more pictures as soon as possible.
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,899
    > @rolandoLI said:
    > (Image)
    Is this image upside down? If not that valve is installed wrong.
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    its not. its the way he installed it.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,899
    Between that and the use of Teflon Tape I’d repipe the entire feed!
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    > @pecmsg said:
    > > @rolandoLI said:
    > > (Image)
    > Is this image upside down? If not that valve is installed wrong.
    >

    We all know I've been wrong before but I don't believe there's any specific mounting position for a Firomatic valve. I think I've seen them anywhere and everywhere.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    And cap the lines going to your underground tank until you remove them and the tank.
    steve
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,899
    <blockquote class="Quote" rel="HVACNUT">> <a href="https://forum.heatinghelp.com/profile/pecmsg" rel="nofollow">@pecmsg<;/a> said:

    > > <a href="https://forum.heatinghelp.com/profile/rolandoLI" rel="nofollow">@rolandoLI<;/a> said:

    > > (Image)

    > Is this image upside down? If not that valve is installed wrong.

    >



    We all know I've been wrong before but I don't believe there's any specific mounting position for a Firomatic valve. I think I've seen them anywhere and everywhere.</blockquote>

    That valve needs gravity too close.
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12

  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12

  • Jellis
    Jellis Member Posts: 228

    That valve needs gravity too close.


    I thought all of the firomatic valves were "spring close" and the wheel held the valve open against the pressure of the spring? when reaching 160°F the "threads" let go and the pressure from the spring closes the valve?

    What is the Gravity effect?



    Grallert
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    edited December 2019
    Ugly yes, but I don't think the valve is wrong either. It's the valve typically used right at the fuel pump.
    Never heard about needing gravity to close. It auto-closes from heat, or closes manually, it doesn't have an internal check-valve.
    All the teflon has to go, redone with the proper dope. And I'd get rid of all the iron.
    Tiger loop is missing the loop at the intake. The tiger loop is also supplied with a firomatic valve.
    The angle firomatic they make for the tank, mounts with the wheel on the bottom.

    steve
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    why is the Teflon tape not recommended ??
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    The teflon breaks down and could clog the pump, or nozzle. All pump manufactures will void a warranty on anything where tape was used.
    And it's in the code book...
    steve
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 217
    Foam =air Now you got to find the problem. Tape dosent help with oil.

    Whats with the 2 expansion tanks?
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,203
    That expansion tank along with the rest of the near boiler piping is there to make it difficult to remove the top cover when it comes time to vacuum clean the boiler.
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 217

    That expansion tank along with the rest of the near boiler piping is there to make it difficult to remove the top cover when it comes time to vacuum clean the boiler.

    Bah ha ha!! Gave me a lump on my head just looking at it. "I know a guy" was applied
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,451
    10. Can I use a Tigerloop with an overhead line?
    Yes, but overhead lines should be avoided whenever possible as they accumulate air in the overhead sections and then suddenly pass large amounts of air into the burner. The instruction sheet which comes with the Tigerloop has some suggestions on how to pipe a Tigerloop to feed the air in smaller more manageable doses through the Tigerloop.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,451
    The vacuum required to raise the oil to the horizontal run can cause air to leave solution. This air doesn't reabsorb immediately when the vacuum is reduced, leading to air buildup in the horizontal run or what you're seeing, the tiger loop doing it's job.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 273
    The oil entering the Tigerloop is low velocity, the return line is high velocity. I suspect there is an air leak at one of the flex line supply connections. The burner pump is sucking in air and causing the foam.
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    Good morning thanks for all the answers, the boiler and indirect water heater have there own expansion tanks, that is why you see two, i was thinking on purchasing shorter flex lines they are way too long, i am having oil drop tomorrow the tank is at 1/4 of a tank, i also noticed over the weekend that is no in every run does the tiger loop foams, or will only foam at the beginning after a minute or so it goes away.
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    Will something like this be a good and proper installation??
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    Much better, hopefully I'm still not looking at teflon tape.
    steve
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 273
    Is this how you have it installed now? Air is getting in there from somewhere. All that tape is preventing the flex line from sealing even if the nuts are tight.
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    actually i was asking if that picture represent proper installation.
    i am going to the plumbing store tomorrow to buy new lines and the proper dope and also to add the loop at the intake. should i bend the intake line so my valve would sit upside?
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    edited December 2019
    Yes that’s a proper install. The valve is fine, you can change it if you want.
    I’d also get rid of all the iron and put the flex lines with the proper fittings (and all pipe dope) right onto the fuel pump. Or use angled brass to make it look a little nicer like your pic. I’d also use both bottom ports on the pump and not put the supply on the cover.
    Instructions:
    https://www.spxflow.com/en/assets/pdf/TigerloopPlus-InstallationEN-CA.pdf
    steve
  • rolandoLI
    rolandoLI Member Posts: 12
    Good morning everyone. I have a heating company do the repairs and proper install for me, the tech also correct the psi on the pump and the air intake on the gun itself.
    Everything is running very good from time to time I see a few bubbles com up but no more foaming and boiler seems to be more quiet after the repair, the only question I have for you guys is that he adjusted the high limit and the low limit on the aquastat high at 185 and low at 140 ,my low limit was off, I was explained that it was off because I have an indirect water tank so the boiler did not need to stayed at a high temp all the time.
    Which one is the correct setting??
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,792
    If you have an indirect tank then you really don't need a low limit setting. Just a high. No need to keep the boiler hot 24/7 unless you have a tankless coil for domestic hot water. Unless you are using a ton of hot water the burner should only fire up a few times a day in the summer with an indirect tank.
    STEVEusaPA
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 531
    drop that low limit as far as it will go. Also if you got that tank second hand it might still have the rubber drop tube in the tank. I've had a number of those develop a crack near the top allowing a bit of air to mix with the drawn up oil.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    What brand and model aquastat?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,019
    All the teflon tape talk is a bunch of crap. Illegal...YES. But teflon was used for years on oil before that became code and I never had an issue with it. It should be still allowed JMHO.

    People think it clogs things up, How does a piece of teflon tape get past the pump strainer?

    Why has it not been outlawed on gas?

    I would be much more concerned with teflon tape under a gas valve seat than causing a problem with an oil burner.

    The reason it was outlawed was to prevent fittings from being over tightened into the pump.

    The pump manufacturers put up a stink and it was outlawed.

    If teflon was allowed (with pipe dope) you would find less suctions leaks and the dreaded Tiger Loops wouldn't be needed. There are a band aid used to solve a problem that shouldn't exist.

    There is no excuse for a tight suction line
    EdTheHeaterManSTEVEusaPA
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,203
    edited January 2020
    Don't listen to @EBEBRATT-Ed
    He thinks the only reason for a tiger-loop is to bandaid poor install. He chooses to be blind to the benefits of a slow flow rate from the tank to the burner room and the benefits of a 2 pipe system for burner operation. I have explained it to him before, several years ago. He has a closed mind and he chooses to disagree with the indisputable logic of the full flow of a pumps gearset at 20 or 27 GPH, from a fuel tank with 15°F fuel in it, and the return line from the tank with the same amount of fuel returning (Less the firing rate of .50 GPH or so) back to the tank, thru a 1/4" interior diameter tube. As I said in previous posts on previous threads. I have solved over 100 Cold Oil Tank problems (That don't have fuel or air leaks in the fittings) over the last 20 years with fuel deaerators. The proof is in the results.

    So, as I said at the beginning of this thread Don't listen to @EBEBRATT-Ed on this point.

    He has good stuff on other topics and I agree with much of what he says. But must disagree on this point. Fuel Deaerator is a good thing!
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    STEVEusaPASuperTech
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,019
    @EdTheHeaterMan
    Seriously, 20-27 gph is the gear capacity of a residential pump? I think not. It's more like 3 or 7 gph that's 1/10 of a gallon/ min flowing through a 3/8 od line. I think 3/8 tubing has no issues with that over a reasonable distance.

    As far as two pipe goes i am all for it. Every job should be 2 pipe. Keep the oil moving and filtering it will result in less plugged filters. Why let sludge pile up in the tank? Oil becomes sludge when it is allowed to sit stagnint . It's not sludge when they deliver it is it? I am not talking about a 40 year old tank that's already sludged up, I'm talking about a new install

    Tiger loops have there place but not on every job. Tiger loops allow for sloppy installations and bad flares. A Tiger loop is sold as a deairerator. If the lines are tight you will have no air

    They don't have to make the lines tight, just stick a band aid on it.

    One of the most common causes of burner problems is this:

    The oil cant get from the tank to the burner properly.

    It's always been that way

  • Jellis
    Jellis Member Posts: 228
    Not sure the tension is necessary over the use of a tiger loop.

    Tiger loops are a viable option to replace a 2 pipe oil system.
    There are pros and cons of each.

    They are not necessary on a typical installation
    STEVEusaPA
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    Little rude @EdTheHeaterMan. Not your first time, right?

    Nothing @EBEBRATT-Ed said was incorrect., regarding teflon or Tiger Loops.
    He has tremendous experience and knowledge in all facets of HVAC.
    Him and I have a friendly, on-going disagreement of 1 pipe vs. 2 pipe, but we both agree that a tiger loop is rarely needed. This post has nothing to do with cold old or TGSC, which is about 15gph on most residential fuel pumps.

    We're all guests on this site with the sole mission of helping others and helping each other.
    Not going off topic with diarrhea of the fingers with a whole bunch of posts unrelated to the original post.
    steve
    Jellis
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,865


    We're all guests on this site with the sole mission of helping others and helping each other.

    Yes, let's be respectful of one another. Thank you.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,203
    Sorry for the outburst. I have said this about tigerloops before and have been told the gearsets don't move anymore than 7 or 10 GPH. Sorry for the outburst. I guess we will have to agree to disagree
    The first column says Suntec A2VA 7116 is 17GPH @ 3450 RPM
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    I think it's safe to say that back in the 80's and 90's, the Tiger Loop was without a doubt a quick fix for a deeper, yet never to be repaired issue.

    Compression fittings buried in concrete, the buried tank with a rotted pickup tube, years of sludge turning the 1/4" ID copper to 1/16".

    When Buderus offered the G125BE in the U.S. , a Tiger Loop Ultra came with, and manufacture specs it must be used. The BE burner has a nozzle line heater, so what's up? I thought about it. And read about it. And it makes sense for me. It's really not a Band-aid. And if anyone is using one for a Band-aid in the 21st century, they have no business being in business.

    I have an above ground 275 gal Roth, 65 ft of 1/2" oil line to a basement boiler with a Riello F5 and a Tiger Loop Ultra. All I know is, the vacuum gauge is always at 0.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,691
    Is the vacuum gauge on the tiger loop (filter) or on the pump cover port (and does it work)? Lol
    Probably only shows vacuum for a few minutes after you change the filter?

    Something I found interesting and couldn’t believe, was once a poster asked about a European-only boiler, somewhere in Europe (I think Germany).
    I looked up the manual online and it stated, and showed a picture, the oil deaerater MUST be installed outside and protected from freezing, something that defies logic, and manufacturers instructions.
    So much for heating up the oil. If I can find it again I’ll post it.
    steve
    HVACNUT