Replacing old oil boiler with more efficient system

szwedj

While this particular control will tell you if the puff switch did cause the lockout, none of the prior controls used would tell you specifically that the puff switch had caused the lockout.  So sometimes when a tech is unable to catch the switch opening while on site and they are confident with the burner setup, they will temporarily jump the switch out as a way to see if it was the cause of the lockouts.

STEVEusaPA

Yes temporarily. But even you wouldn’t recommend leaving it that way for a month.

HVACNUT

A tech with a draft gauge and manometer would be able to flag it or move on in about 3 minutes. 

kitugreat

I just got an email from service department:
"They agreed to electrically bypass the so-called “puff switch” or back-draft detector on the front of the boiler casing. We will wait a week or longer to make sure it starts without fail on calls for hot water, then return. If there are no other problems until then (please call if there is) then we will replace the puff switch under the warranty. There is no other way to test it reliably."
@HVACNUT Could they actually test it with the draft gauge and manometer?

STEVEusaPA

Maybe the puff switch is just doing it's job. And yes it can be checked. As I mentioned, and others, your primary control would've told you if it was a blocked vent situation.
Plus, it looks like it's in a tight room. Maybe there's something up with that pvc to the burner, or a drafting problem.
I'm sticking with the oil line problem.

kitugreat

Hello, do you know, if my system is compatible with Nest Learning Thermostat? I replaced one of the basic thermostats with Nest about 2 months ago. I noticed a few days ago that display is black. It is not responding to anything and has red blinking light on top. I removed it from the base and charged with USB charging cable for couple of hours. It is working again, but I think that battery is not charging. I only have 2 wires, red and white connected to Rh and W1 on the base.
Thanks

szwedj

Your system manager with the lcd display is the latest manager and should work fine with the Nest only using two wires.  Refer to the drawings in the link.  The drawings do show other ways to wire power stealing thermostats using two wires and a resistor or three wires using the common (C) terminal which are required for prior versions of the system manager.  Make sure R is connected to A1 and W to Tx (x=1,2,3 or 4).  

https://energykinetics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Nest-Power-Sharing-Wiring.pdf

dopey27177

I am suprized that the contractor did not install a day tank in the attic.

A small pump would pump oil to the day tank. The would flow by gravity to the oil burner and there would be no suction or prime problems.

Jake

SuperTech

Looking at the printout of the combustion analysis it looks like the burner is not tuned correctly.  Energy Kinetics wants the burner tuned to a minimum of 6.5% O2. 

Jamie Hall

kitugreat said:

Hello, do you know, if my system is compatible with Nest Learning Thermostat? I replaced one of the basic thermostats with Nest about 2 months ago. I noticed a few days ago that display is black. It is not responding to anything and has red blinking light on top. I removed it from the base and charged with USB charging cable for couple of hours. It is working again, but I think that battery is not charging. I only have 2 wires, red and white connected to Rh and W1 on the base.
Thanks

Maybe. There are ways to wire the dang things so they will work on two wires, at least some of the time, and the EK manual shows some of them. Perhaps a more relevant question -- assuming you can get it to work -- is is the Nest compatible with your heating system at all? And the answer is, no, not really. It will turn it on an off, yes, but it's logic -- meant for forced hot air systems conflicts with the logic of control of hot water systems. and will actually wind up using more fuel in most cases.

kitugreat

@jJamie Hall said:

Maybe. There are ways to wire the dang things so they will work on two wires, at least some of the time, and the EK manual shows some of them. Perhaps a more relevant question -- assuming you can get it to work -- is is the Nest compatible with your heating system at all? And the answer is, no, not really. It will turn it on an off, yes, but it's logic -- meant for forced hot air systems conflicts with the logic of control of hot water systems. and will actually wind up using more fuel in most cases.

What programmable thermostat would you recommend for my system? I checked Nest today and it already shows low battery. It is possible that it is defective and I can just return it.

SuperTech

Use a Honeywell T5 or T6. Anything but a Nest. They are total garbage in my opinion. 

szwedj

@kitugreat Did you verify the wiring at the System manager?  R at the thermostat to A1 and W at the thermostat to Tx at the manager?

Noviceatthis

Hi. I also need to replace both my boiler and airconditioning units. I have received three quotes for different manufacturers, with different specs. My current supplier is $ over the others. Is there a simple way to understand what the best overall value is. As you will see from my user name, this is not my core competence. From my research and reading the forum, there are many variables. This is a $ decision apparently. Thank you in advance for your advice.

EdTheHeaterMan

SuperTech said:

Use a Honeywell T5 or T6. Anything but a Nest. They are total garbage in my opinion. 

I agree that many new items introduced in the HVAC industry may be Junk from time to time. I recall calling the EK Heat manager "a piece of junk". I know now that my statement was one of frustration because I did not understand the concept. Once I took the time to learn about the product, I changed my mind. I also let the customer I blurted my frustration to, know that they did not purchase an EK piece of junk for thousands of dollars. I was able to get great support and the problem solved rather quickly.

So as far as Nest Thermostats, I decided to become a NestPro and learn about the product. I now have 2 of them on my home, one does the HVAC duct system and a separate does the radiant floor heat. I tried to use the 2 stages feature of the Nest to do the scorch-heat as stage 2 and the radiant as stage 1. After understanding the programing of the Nest, I decided to use separate thermostats. A little research can go a long way in understanding "That Piece Of Junk".

Definition: That Piece of Junk
Noun, 1. An object that I don't understand and don't care to understand. 2. a device that confounds a technician. synonym "Garbage"

Jamie Hall

If you're thinking of replacing the boiler and the AC, you really need to go back to square one -- or find a competent professional who will do it for you (they exist; there three in Massachusetts whom I would recommend very highly, if I knew where in the state you were located).

I'm going to make an assumption here: that your system is hot water heat, not steam. If that is the case -- and in any case for the AC, the first thing that needs to happen before anyone can recommend a boiler or other work is to get an estimate on the total heat loss of your house. It's called a Manual J, and it will be the first thing a pro. will do (there is an on-line calculator, too, put out by Slant-fin, which you could use for fun, to check).

Then the boiler is sized to that heat loss. There is no other way to select a boiler size other than the proverbial wild a__ guess. Then you can set about selecting the proper boiler for the job -- again, with the help of a real pro. who knows the boiler, how to install it -- and will maintain it down the road, since they all need at least some maintenance.

Another look at the heat loss calculation will also give you the heat gain for air conditioning -- and thus help the pro. select the best units for that. Again, there is no substitute.

There are many options. Some installations may be able to use heat pumps for a large part of both the heating and cooling load in "shoulder" seasons. Unless your house is very tight and has lot of solar gain and storage, though, you will still need some back up heat in the colder months, and that can be oil (or gas, but that may not be available). Or you can go with straight air conditioning, and a properly sized oil boiler. Or... but a good pro., who is not married to one way of thinking or one partiular brand, can evalute the options and advise you on the merits of various approaches.

One option they won't give you is straight electric resistance heat -- it will be more expensive, and isn't anywhere near as environmentally friendly as the options I've mentioned above.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Jamie Hall
Are you in the correct question post?
Your last post seems out of context for someone that just installed a new EK boiler in July

Jamie Hall

oops. How'd that happen... but that's what the header says? Also the post by @Noviceatthis just above yours... ? I'm confused...

EdTheHeaterMan

I did not see @Noviceatthis post until you mentioned it. Maybe it is a glitch that @Erin Holohan Haskell needs to fix. Your comment makes sense now @Jamie Hall Might need a new discussion

HVACNUT

Yes @Noviceatthis, click on the pencil and start a new thread. 
But leave pricing out. You can do, contractor 1 was $, contractor 2 was $$, and so forth.
@Jamie Hall nailed all of it I think but others will be sure to have input. 

kitugreat

szwedj said:

@kitugreat Did you verify the wiring at the System manager?  R at the thermostat to A1 and W at the thermostat to Tx at the manager?

I see that Red wire connected to the thermostat at Rh and White wire connected to W1. On the System Manager side Red wire connected to T3 and White wire connected to A1



Should I just reverse them on the thermostat end?

Erin Holohan Haskell

HVACNUT said:

Yes @Noviceatthis, click on the pencil and start a new thread. 
But leave pricing out. You can do, contractor 1 was $, contractor 2 was $$, and so forth.

Yes, please start a new post with your question, @Noviceatthis. Thanks.

Noviceatthis

Thank you and apologies. I have now reposted in Oil Heating topic to avoid any more confusion

szwedj

@kitugreat That’s what I would do, it’s very easy thing to try.

kitugreat

I swapped wires at the thermostat end, but it didn't make any difference. I just ordered resistor and hopefully it will resolve this issue. If not, will try latest version of Honeywell thermostat.
They have T9 now. It looks very nice and about 30 % cheaper.

szwedj

@kitugreat, I think you have a possible issue with your thermostat and how it makes contact with the base plate. The resistor is typically used when Nest(s) are connected to prior version Managers. The purpose of the resistor is to prevent what we refer to as a "ghost call" to the Manager while it is charging itself. In this case, the Nest does not seem to be charging. You can email me directly at jszwed@energykinetics.com if you like.

kitugreat

Can I use multimeter to test wires, if they provide enough power to charge thermostat?

STEVEusaPA

I don't think there is anything YOU can do with a DMM to help yourself.
Take the Nest off (and throw it away...lol) and charge it again, then put it back on and wire it correctly...Red from Nest to A1 on Manager. You have all the reds on the T terminals.
Better would be add a resistor, or separate power source.
Best would be a common wire.
It's all in the pdf someone else posted.
I've used Honeywell T's, and Lyric and never had a problem.