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My last HTP, and some Cross manifolds!

GroundUp
GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
edited December 2019 in Radiant Heating

I piped this thing probably 2 months ago and got it running for the 4 zones of radiant (new 2500 sq ft shed/house/shouse deal) and have been waiting for the plumber forever so I could commission the indirect. Finally got back there last night and fired everything up and set the mixing valve, I must say I'm impressed and disappointed at the same time with HTP. I love these UFT boilers, but I have been having issues with availability (nobody will carry parts within 100 miles) and the online suppliers just aren't doing me any favors. Also this particular SSU-45 showed up with missing screws, a badly snaggled up sticker, and no control and I had to buy another one because they wouldn't make it right. Awesome combination here for functionality, but it's time to move on to something more available and that will stand behind their QC flaws. This is my 13th UFT for 2019 and they've all been great, just time to move on. A side note though, these Cross manifolds are fanfreakingtastic. Heavy and big, but awesome. I will never use actuators again if these continue to work the way they have been! And yes, I should have piped the indirect off the bottom ports but they didn't leave me enough room to do that.

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,516
    The issued with my ssu were related to ups freight tipping it over and it being packed for reasonable handling, not to be thrown around.
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited December 2019
    The Indirect tank doesn't come with a control. It comes with a well that will take a sensor that connect to the HTP boiler or an aquastat. I prefer the sensor, myself.

    I don't see a T&P valve on the tank.
    mattmia2
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401

    The Indirect tank doesn't come with a control. It comes with a well that will take a sensor that connect to the HTP boiler or an aquastat. I prefer the sensor, myself.

    I don't see a T&P valve on the tank.

    It does when you order it "with control", unless of course it's shipped without like this one even though I paid for it. Then they wouldn't honor the sale so I had to buy another, which showed up in the form of an aquastat instead of the control I now paid for twice. Also you don't see the T&P because you're not looking close enough. Plumbers installed one above the mixing valve. Not how I'd have done it but I'm not a plumber.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,516
    Doesn't the temp probe on the t&p have to be sticking a certain distance in to to the tank within a certain distance from the top of the tank?
    GroundUp
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,293
    I suspect that tank has no warranty if the T&P is not installer per the manufacturer and the plumbing code,
    Top portion of the tank, probe extending in to the water.

    In that location it never sees the tank temperature either, being on the mixed port.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    GroundUpIronman
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited December 2019
    A T&P valve probe must extend into the tank. The T&P valve must have an 8" probe for the HTP tank. A 4" probe will not extend into the tank. I use a 3/4" brass tee on the tank and screw the probe into the end of the tee into the tank and use the side port of the tee to supply the heated water.

    The placement of the T&P valve on your unit is a big time error on the part of the installer.

    I don't understand why you used an aquastat for the tank instead of a sensor. You are probably not using Out Door Reset either, although that may not be absolutely necessary with a totally radiant sys.

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401

    A T&P valve probe must extend into the tank. The T&P valve must have an 8" probe for the HTP tank. A 4" probe will not extend into the tank. I use a 3/4" brass tee on the tank and screw the probe into the end of the tee into the tank and use the side port of the tee to supply the heated water.

    The placement of the T&P valve on your unit is a big time error on the part of the installer.

    I don't understand why you used an aquastat for the tank instead of a sensor. You are probably not using Out Door Reset either, although that may not be absolutely necessary with a totally radiant sys.

    I fought that but the plumber insisted he was doing it his way, you can't tell some people anything. I'd have done it per the manual but it wasn't my job. As I said twice, I ordered a control (sensor) two times and got nothing the first time but an aquastat the second time although I paid for an electronic control twice. That is one of the reasons I am stepping away from HTP- their QC is horrible. But yes I am using ODR, what gives you the impression I'm not?
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited December 2019
    "...I am using ODR, what gives you the impression I'm not?" Because the ODR and tank sensor comes in a package, together.

    The person who pays is the boss.

    One doesn't hire a plumber to do hydronic work. It take specialized knowledge. It's surprising how many plumbers can't read or follow the manufacturer's instructions in the manual.

    Hubris plays a part, I think.
    GroundUpBillyO
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,293
    So the liability or warranty on a failed tank would fall to whom?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    @HomerJSmith let's get a few things straight here. The ODR sensor comes with the boiler and is in use to control the radiant temp. Outdoor temp plays no role on domestic water needs, so there would be no use for ODR on the indirect.

    No plumber touched anything hydronic here, that was all me. They piped the domestic side of the tank (poorly, I might add)

    As for the warranty, both the plumber and homeowner were informed yesterday of the T&P issue. Plumber told me to F off, so I left it to the homeowner who hired him to get it fixed or warranty would be voided. Not much else I can do
  • Hmmmmm........You did a very fine job here, as always and I feel your pain. You're in the middle between the plumber and the homeowner and I would get a lawyer involved, sorry to say. That relief valve is indisputably in the wrong location. Everyone knows that except the plumber and the owners should be aware of the safety and legal ramifications and you need to protect yourself.

    I'm surprised your supplier didn't support you with your HTP order. My local supplier just dropped the HTP line. Don't know the details.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,516
    The plumbing and mechanical inspectors should know as well...
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited December 2019
    GroundUp, you should tag the boiler and tape the switch off with red tape that preferably says danger and leave it to the homeowner to do as he wishes. I would take a dated picture of it, too.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    There are no inspections here, so that's out the window. What on earth would I need a lawyer for? I didn't do anything wrong here and I have documentation of everything including the conversation between myself and the HO and plumber (text messaging has a place) so my butt is covered. The house is unoccupied as of now, but if it's not repaired before they move in I will be decommissioning the indirect
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 570
    I don't believe I've ever seen black pex before. Anyone know this mfg.?
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    psb75 said:

    I don't believe I've ever seen black pex before. Anyone know this mfg.?

    It's Viega. Been black as long as I can remember.
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited December 2019
    GroundUp, you don't understand lawyers. I have family members that are lawyers.

    Lawyers sue any and everybody who was within 10 miles of that boiler. You end up buying your way out of the law suit because it's cheaper than fighting it and ending up not responsible.

    Nice racket.

    There's an old saying, "If there is only one lawyer in a town, he'll starve to death, but if there are two lawyers in a town, they can make a pretty handsome living."

    Send the customer a certified letter, receipt requested, indicating the problem and the code requirement and keep that letter forever.
  • I like the Cross manifolds too, but I wonder if they will still be efficient after 15 years. Lots of moving parts.
    Looks like you used Honeywell RedLINK wireless thermostats. I've only used them twice and they've been very stable.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    Well, again there is no code out here and as a landlord I'm very familiar with lawyers. I cannot be responsible for something I did not touch, that's like a HO screwing a plug in a relief valve and the contractor that installed the valve years prior being responsible. It would never stand up in court, but again I have documentation on the issue as well as insurance and an attorney on retainer just in case but I'm not the least bit concerned about it.

    Yeah I'm curious on the longevity of the Cross manifolds myself. If they last 15 years they've paid for themselves 3 times not having to change actuators all the time, so that's a plus. Time will tell! As for the RedLink, that runs the FA furnace zone dampers to the left of the boiler serving the upper level. The radiant is running just regular old Honeywell 1000 heat-only stats.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,293
    Not to rain on your nice installation, great work.

    I think if you supplied the tank, and as a licensed professional on the job, and a record of communication with the HO regarding the relief valve, I'm pretty sure attorneys and courts would find you have some liability.

    I'd go back and make it right on my own nickel if the plumber refuses. Even with liability insurance lawsuits are not worth the 1 hour it would take to correct it.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    HomerJSmithHenry
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 2,546
    Hi, My father was a lawyer so I got legal lessons at the dinner table. One was about the shotgun approach. This is when everyone even remotely involved gets sued. It then let’s the judge dole out the blame. You might be found blameless, but it will still cost time and upset. Personally I’d tell the client that it’s a safety hazard and you will fix it and send a bill, if they can’t get the plumber to make it right.

    Yours, Larry
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    I stopped in this afternoon and spoke to the HO, showed him the manual with the diagram and explained the hazard in person. He was in complete agreement and was okay with me decommissioning the unit until it's repaired. I removed the aquastat and wiring, closed the valves and removed the handles and took them with me, and disconnected the wiring to the circ. I cannot legally touch the plumbing, as I am not a plumber. Having been involved in plenty of petty legal battles with tenants and seeing how attorneys play the game, I am not the least bit concerned about being sued over something I did not do. Thanks all for the concern.
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    "I am not the least bit concerned about being sued over something I did not do."

    Famous last words.
    psb75mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,516
    There are some lawyers that make a living finding products on web sites that contain prop 65 chemicals that the sweller is not aware of because they are just reselling it then suing the seller to force them to pay a settlement.
  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,039
    I’d really like to know more about who would not make that damaged tank right. The members above are right, we could indeed not warranty based on that T&P but if you get it fixed you’ll be fine. Also if you were missing a part I’d like to fix that for you too. Tim White. My email is [email protected]
    Just a guy running some pipes.
    mattmia2GroundUp
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    @Timco thanks, much appreciated. I am not going to throw the supplier under the bus as the deal is done and I've since moved on. The T&P will be fixed before the tank is recommissioned. I appreciate you reaching out, that means a lot
    Canucker
  • duffy_4
    duffy_4 Member Posts: 78
    Nice work G
    I have question as I am not familiar with HTP boilers
    How are you able to pipe the radiant zones direct without P/S or is it integral inside the boiler . Thanks
  • duffy_4
    duffy_4 Member Posts: 78
    BTW I have used cross manifolds quite a lot in the past year and like their versatility and ease of zoning. Their customer service is outstanding and they deal with any issues professionally and promptly. Just improved their zones controls to open more than one valve at a time to reduce time and travel on the carriage assembly.
    GroundUp
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,201
    @duffy_4 the UFT model has a medium sized fire tube hx so the head loss isn’t nearly as high as the typical fire tube hx so in some applications there is no need to plumb the boiler p/s. We’ve installed plenty of them direct piping with no issues at all.
  • motoguy128
    motoguy128 Member Posts: 394
    Haven’t seen the black OEX either.

    One concern about HTP is they are now dumping them on the market at big box stores under the Westinghouse label. We worked on one a few months ago. The propane setup was a PITA requiring manual Air adjustment as opposed to a Navien when they have a orifice plate change only. Not sure why. Really struggled to get it to run well.

    Of course the genius that installed it (handy man with a pex tool) didn’t realize it had an internal pump and added the loop pump in a series. No I’m not joking. As usual, can’t Be bothered to read a manual.

    Probably paid as much in time and material for us to fix it along with the hack installation, than if we had just installed the boiler.
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 995
    I have had excellent service with HTP and the local distributor. In 12 years, they replaced one wall unit. I had two Modcon500 that leaked at the condensate pan. They were both fixed. HTP did get a bad batch of fans from FASCO last winter. I had two that were replaced by the distributor. Basically, we install and forget about it. The Modcon is the most reliable boilers that we install compared to others that are spec by engineers.
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,757
    There is a section on this site called" heating hell". That tank belongs in that section. I also would not worry about you being sued but I would about the people you kill or maim.
  • SeanBeans
    SeanBeans Member Posts: 487
    @GroundUp not sure why everyone is treating you like you personally put the T&P there..
    GroundUp
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,995
    In my opinon
    @GroundUp is not responsible for the plumbing any more than he would be responsible for the electrician if he did a hack job wiring the equipment.

    But, since @GroundUp provided the water tank he should (in my opinion to cover his a--) responsibly notify the homeowner & the plumber in writing of his concerns. I would also notify the local inspector but apparently their is none.

    People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    No one posting on this site is perfect. We have all done jobs that have some kind of issues or gray area

    Some just wont admit it
    GroundUpDZoro
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,401
    @motoguy128 the Westinghouse units you see are very similar to these HTP, but not the same. There are no internal circulators in these HTP and the LP conversion is as simple as 4 screws and a clamp to swap the mixer (carburetor as I like to call it) and of the 10 or so I've converted, adjustment was super minimal. I have only played with 2 of those Westinghouse units but I felt they were more similar to the Laars Mascot than the HTP UFT. And I'd be lying if I said I was not guilty of the same "pumps in series" deal the first time I installed a Mascot, thinking it was the same as a UFT. Finished all the piping as if it were an HTP, then opened the cabinet and saw otherwise. It's been running that way for several years and has never been an issue, but that's a single zone at 5 GPM in a pole shed so P/S was never necessary in the first place.


    @unclejohn I appreciate your negativity, but I would not be "killing or maiming" anybody. If you took 2 minutes to read the comments before making one of your own, you would know that I had absolutely nothing to do with the T&P, and that the tank has been decommissioned.


    @EBEBRATT-Ed Thank you, I agree entirely. We've all done some things that we looked back on later and wondered "**** was I thinking?", and anybody who says they haven't is a liar. I have contacted both the HO and plumber via email regarding the issue, and the tank has since been decommissioned until repaired. As you saw, there is no inspector to complain to so I'm on my own with this but the HO is 110% on my side and was happy with my decision to shut it down after the plumber told me to F off. It will be rectified.
    Alan (California Radiant) ForbesDZoro