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brass tank bolts? worlds oldest plumbing discussion - well not quite

archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
i tire of trying to filter various tank bolt results for brass vs. brass plated and half the time the title is brass but the fine print is brass plated. I do wish that various ecommerce sites, including some purportedly aimed at plumbing professionals would get that straight.

Solid Brass bolts are findable in spite of said difficulties, but the question that emerges is which sets of nuts and washers (and sometimes tank gasket) are most appropriate. Many are delivered with thin nuts, maybe to save money or because close coupled arrangements don't provide much space between the tank and bowl for a the nut that holds the bolt in the tank and secures the rubber washer primarily to prevent leak/drips, although i think the nuts will actually sit down into the holes cast in the bowl as i think about it. If there aren't functional barriers, I prefer a higher nut.

I can buy the bolts with nothing, just straight bolts, then i have to decide what hardware to stock with them and i'm reduced to considered whether to use brass or stainless steel nuts. I stock stainless flange nuts which would be nice, they just stand the hex way away from the porcelain for easy wrench access. But there is some distance between stainless and brass on the galvanic chart so maybe that is defeating the purpose and i should stick to brass.

emperical or abstract thoughts welcome.

thanks

brian

Comments

  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    Most always brass nuts with the famed johnni bolts for me. Haven't had much use for stainless nuts and bolts for the toilet fastening application that you are talking about.
    Solid brass by hercules are some of the best and and most consistent for fit and finish, and they are solid brass. Both the long and short version. Like these.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,398
    Why not just figure out the individual parts and buy them in bulk from mcmaster-carr?

    Stainless and brass is a good combination because the stainless is more corrosion resistant and stronger but they won't randomly seize the way a stainless nut on a stainless bolt will.
    Intplm.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    Its best in my humble opinion, to stock the brass bolts.
    Stainless can gaul up and create all sorts of problems when tightening or loosening. And that is not a problem that you want when in close contact with the vitreous china that toilets are made of.
    And what @mattmia2 said.
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    Intplm. said:

    Most always brass nuts with the famed johnni bolts for me.

    right, but you would think something as search driven as the internet would have figured out the difference between tank bolts and johnni bolts by now. searching for brass tank bolts is complicated by the fact that virtually every search engine and ecommerce website filter puts johnni bolts and tank bolts together.

    I agree with you on the johnny bolts although I have occasionally used fully threaded stainless 5/16" carriage bolts but you need strong flange to get the full benefit. By far the most important thing on that 'end' is to et the toilet to sit flat on the floor. I either work the a tile floor with a diamond grinder or fill a portion of the bottom of the toilet with body filler, but you got to be quick and careful getting it down but you'll never have a rocker.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    edited December 2019
    There are some very good shim methods that can be used to correct a toilet from rocking. Using body filler is really not one of them.
    But using stainless for toilets is unnecessary.
    I'm doing a job now that requires a lot of stainless threads, and every thread needs to be lubricated before it is fastened. If it is not lubed it gauls up time and time again.

    Stainless is unnecessary and not user friendly in a toilet installation.

    As to the web filtering, Those numbers are tallied by what is searched and what is purchased. Stainless is not a big number because it is not purchased in quantity as brass is. Stainless is not a practical option.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 1,449
    For rocking Plaster of Paris between bowl and tile floor.

    Bolts...……. Never Seize

  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    mattmia2 said:

    Why not just figure out the individual parts and buy them in bulk from mcmaster-carr?

    standard brass nuts aren't a problem, although maybe with your thoughts on stainless and brass i already have the nuts i need. the other problem is rubber washers. I could guess at it but i would thing there is some range of diameter, thickness, durometer rating and material selection that would characterize the range of acceptable choices for tank washers (vs. gaskets for the flush valve to the bowl, something that the internet hopelessly confuses) but I can't find anything.

    One supposes trial and error might not be off the charts costly here but where the hell is the industry standard (or range of standards) for this.

    As with many bits of hardware it is sometimes difficult to duplicate the purpose designed hardware in even a wide selection of generic hardware, e.g. macmaster carr doesn't have any truss head brass machine screws.

    Supply House has Jones Stephens individual truss head brass bolts (I'm also wondering whether slotted is the best solution in this day and age, but i digress) with no other hardware, i.e. no washers or nuts.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jones-Stephens-C03801-5-16-18-3-Brass-Tank-Bolt

    or a 50 (25 pair) pack including washers, wing nut and a tank gasket

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jones-Stephens-C03203-5-16-3-Brass-Tank-to-Bowl-Bolt-Set-with-Gasket-Wing-Nut-box-of-25-pairs

    (albeit no specs on the tank gasket either . . . doesn't look as robust as the heaviest universals but might be fine in most circumstances) that solves the bolt, rubber washer and maybe some stocking of tank gaskets for me and then I can buy nuts separately. I never liked the wing nuts that much and i'll see what material they are. Just never were that great for coming apart 15 years later. I can't find that they offer this item is smaller quantity although elsewhere on the interwebs singletons are available at a much higher premium - as you would expect

    http://www.jonesstephens.com/product/c03203/?_filter_product_category=category-specialties-repair&_filter_product_sub_category=sub_category-toilet-repairs

    Well, there is a novel about nothing, just call me the Jerry Seinfeld of the wall.
    mattmia2 said:

    Stainless and brass is a good combination because the stainless is more corrosion resistant and stronger but they won't randomly seize the way a stainless nut on a stainless bolt will.

    the galvanic chart I have is confusing as to where stainless falls and of course there are a range of alloys that qualify but they fall all over the chart and I don't recognize the numbering conventions as readily against my standardized purchases of stainless hardware. What I have is non-magnetic and I could get the specs from my supplier. Just a whole nother rabbit hole to go down.

    high irony about the galling of smaller stainless. That is especially true with nylocs and higher thread contact/tension. Another thing that seems odd to me about the chart is that aluminum is showing as more corrosive than steel which maybe there is its the tendency to corrode at the surface and protect underneath that is 'helpful' unless say you are trying to make an electrical connect. Give me copper wire any day of the week.

  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    I have purchased bolt nut and gasket kits as a "KIT" and have had little to very few problems.

    Can you explain , in short, what you are trying to purchase?
    Maybe offer a short example of what has happened.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,398
    Aluminum (and a number of other metals) are very corrosive but they immediately form an oxide on the surface that mostly stops further corrosion. There are some conditions that keep that oxide layer from functioning and when that happens it almost dissolves like a block of table salt.
  • MikeL_2MikeL_2 Member Posts: 260
    We don't often replace close couple hardware, but I do keep an assortment of nuts, washers, & bolts on hand. Most of them harvested from toilets we replace.
    We occasionally carefully grind the underside of bowls to remove slag or even up the bowls floor contact surface. We deal with rocking bowls on uneven floor surfaces by sliding rainbow or red rubber packing in under the bowl as needed; we finish the install by cutting away the excess rubber with an angled knife, and seal the gap with a bead of quality caulk.
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    edited December 2019
    Intplm. said:

    I have purchased bolt nut and gasket kits as a "KIT" and have had little to very few problems.

    Can you explain , in short, what you are trying to purchase?
    Maybe offer a short example of what has happened.

    solid brass tanks bolts and best nuts, washers and rubbers–either in affordable set or independently–because folks don't highly distinguish their marketing of these items. Even where they accurately label the bolts solid brass you don't always know what you are getting for washers and nuts. Mostly i'm just whining, and I knew you guys wouldn't tell.

    But was interested in particular stocking choices and mixing of hardware anyone out there has done. The sets are indeed findable although expensive as single units and the bulk options i'm finding even from plumbing oriented providers are not well documented. Nor can you find comon industry specs, most of the bolts are 3" long, some are 2 and 3/4". There isn't a spec i've found for ideal head diameter or for rubber washer size or thickness if one were substituting generic hardware.

    (ditto btw for 8/32 electric box cover screws, they always get lost and you can't get readily get replacements that start as easily, have similarly head and driver provisions. go to an electric counter and try to buy a box of those screws. they might have some 8/32 screws but the style and convenience aren't there).

    And any searching success tips welcome. For various plumbing stuff you put in 1 and 1/4 and you get 1/4 inch stuff. you put in tank bolts and you get johnni bolts and with many pages handing back more results than they can display in a single screen and not particularly effective filters for toilets parts i'm just feeling grouchy (at least when you get sizes of pipe you weren't after, there usually is a filter for pipe size). So, I reckon that manufacturers and ecommerce folks are hanging on this site looking for the next great thing they should stock or sort.

    Of course there can be local wholesalers who have figured this stuff out and this could be one of those cases and I'm likely to buy one set the next time I'm at the counter just to check their offerings, but I'm looking at stocking decisions for buying a fifty or a hundred bolts and there often is not a bulk solution that represents a good mix of economy and quality for convenience items.
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    mattmia2 said:

    Aluminum (and a number of other metals) are very corrosive but they immediately form an oxide on the surface that mostly stops further corrosion. There are some conditions that keep that oxide layer from functioning and when that happens it almost dissolves like a block of table salt.

    I knew the oxide coating side of the story but I hadn't stopped long enough to realize that the metals were otherwise highly corrosive. I just knew I hated aluminum wire because not only does it have to be very carefully joined and still subject to connection failure but it's higher resistivity means you have to use larger sizes for the same ampacity. As a rule, careful joinery is sufficient but large entry cable is alway in a damp environment and always conducting electricity, although that is not electrolysis until it is.

    Although it is more ductile than copper that just doesn't make up for it the increased thickness. I guess there might be aluminum hardware but I avoid. I have used a few hubbell aluminum entry connectors for large wire where plastic ones would be challenged by the forces involved in bending the wire to the entrance. I'll be keeping the eagle eye on these.

    In flashing work I have tefgel paste for coating the stainless screws where they will penetrate and grab the aluminum. The awareness of the stainless/aluminum incompatibility actually comes from the marine side.

    On plumbing/heating side, the only place I've run into aluminum is Pex-Al-Pex. I have not used that product although discussed in other threads the possibility that it might be a slight deterent to rodent damage after we had a squirrel eat through pex in one house. I'm thinking that the aluminum is well enough separated from dissimilar metals in that system although interested in any results. (maybe i'm hijacking my own thread here)
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    MikeL_2 said:

    We don't often replace close couple hardware, but I do keep an assortment of nuts, washers, & bolts on hand. Most of them harvested from toilets we replace.

    Interesting, is that because you don't do that much maintenance, or maybe you only maintain what you have installed and the brands you install have solid brass coupling bolts.
    MikeL_2 said:


    We occasionally carefully grind the underside of bowls to remove slag or even up the bowls floor contact surface. We deal with rocking bowls on uneven floor surfaces by sliding rainbow or red rubber packing in under the bowl as needed; we finish the install by cutting away the excess rubber with an angled knife, and seal the gap with a bead of quality caulk.

    i have ground the bowl itself as well. I go on the body filler kick early although cured plaster does seem to resist the dampness that might ensue in these circumstances better than might be expected from looking at what leaks do to plaster ceilings. I think its a sometimes standard for bedding fiberglass tubs and showers also - and that definitely is a broader operation that is to which body filler is unsuited in terms of set time and cost per volume. I have also used non shrink grout in that application.

    In a rush with a very light rock i like the rubbersheet idea. I can't figure how any of the hard plastic wedges do much good, other than perhaps setting the height while the plaster cures. Bottom line is I cannot stand a toilet that rocks at all and anything short of pretty complete contact around the outside perimeter of the bottom of the bowl casting is the only way to solve it, vs. tightening the bolts.



  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    edited December 2019
    It seems to me if you're galling stainless steel tightening against a porcelain fixture something is wrong. Honestly it seems impossible for that size bolt and nut.

    Even aluminum shouldn't have much of an issue under such light pressure.

    Has anyone actually had an issue removing 316 SS bolts and nuts from a toilet tank?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    ChrisJ said:

    It seems to me if you're galling stainless steel tightening against a porcelain fixture something is wrong. Honestly it seems impossible for that size bolt and nut.

    Even aluminum shouldn't have much of an issue under such light pressure.

    Has anyone actually had an issue removing 316 SS bolts and nuts from a toilet tank?

    I think that was more a general reference to a recognized issue with stainless but not actually as applicable to toilet repair. i'm intrigued by the idea of using brass bolts and stainless nuts. the galling problem is on small sizes, but mostly with lock nuts. the irony of all this: using stainless bolts you might be able to get apart but then using locknuts so they don't come apart when you don't want them to and then you are right back where you started (excepting that you can get waxed locknuts for this problem. in any event, toilets aren't subject to a lot of vibration (at least not in the uses i envision) and locknuts aren't on the table.

    I have to look at the head size on a stainless truss head 5/16. I had considered the brass bolts to have an even broader head than standard truss style but i realize i have never done a side by side comparison.

    thanks,

    brian
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 1,449
    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    edited December 2019
    pecmsg said:

    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!

    With all due respect,
    I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you said.

    For example, I can tap holes using a form tap in stainless because it's soft and malleable.

    Working with stainless is more similar to aluminum than it is to steel when it comes to choosing tooling and it's far from brittle.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 1,449
    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!

    With all due respect,
    I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you said.

    For example, I can tap holes using a form tap in stainless because it's soft and malleable.

    Working with stainless is more similar to aluminum than it is to steel when it comes to choosing tooling and it's far from brittle.
    Outboard Motors..............If you don't heat the aluminum block that Stainless Steel blot will just snap, no little bit of movement to let you know just PING and S&@t
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!

    With all due respect,
    I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you said.

    For example, I can tap holes using a form tap in stainless because it's soft and malleable.

    Working with stainless is more similar to aluminum than it is to steel when it comes to choosing tooling and it's far from brittle.
    Outboard Motors..............If you don't heat the aluminum block that Stainless Steel blot will just snap, no little bit of movement to let you know just PING and S&@t
    Ok.
    None of that changes the fact stainless is far from brittle.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 1,449
    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!

    With all due respect,
    I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you said.

    For example, I can tap holes using a form tap in stainless because it's soft and malleable.

    Working with stainless is more similar to aluminum than it is to steel when it comes to choosing tooling and it's far from brittle.
    Outboard Motors..............If you don't heat the aluminum block that Stainless Steel blot will just snap, no little bit of movement to let you know just PING and S&@t
    Ok.
    None of that changes the fact stainless is far from brittle.
    That's what I'm saying. No stretch, no warning just SNAP!
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,398
    I have had stainless gall while threading the nut on the part of the bolt where it had yet to apply any clamping force.
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    mattmia2 said:

    I have had stainless gall while threading the nut on the part of the bolt where it had yet to apply any clamping force.

    lock nut, 1/4"?
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!

    With all due respect,
    I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you said.

    For example, I can tap holes using a form tap in stainless because it's soft and malleable.

    Working with stainless is more similar to aluminum than it is to steel when it comes to choosing tooling and it's far from brittle.
    but it isn't just the brittle or hard quality that leads to the calling, I think but an actually microscopic surface nature of the stainless.

    still, I have to side with pecmsg on this brittleness question. trying to tap stainless 1/2" pipe thread I always get threads galling off even with sharp new taps. This is how I make offset couplings for radiator returns, is to take a hex coupling and drill it eccentricly and making it into a bushing because eccentric couplings are absurdly expensive (and a bushing is usually a more efficient fitting for this purpose than an eccentric coupling anyway). I wanted to use brass which is easier to work but you cannot get a solid hex plug in brass in 1 and 1/4 or 1 and 1/2 which is the native size for most of the cast iron radiators i work with. So now i'm buying steel plugs from graingers because they thread better. stainless is brittle, relatively speaking to the standard steel bolt alloys. and it doesn't have as high a shear strength as rated bolts but I still stock virtually all stainless hardware (e.g. come on over to my basement and i can give you 1 and 1/2 to 2 and 1/2" x 7/16" stainless bolts for circulator flanges. I have had pretty good success but get waxed lock nuts for 1/4 and 5/16 and avoid stainless locknuts on 3/16 stainless.)
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    edited December 2019

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    Stainless bolts Gall due to the fact Stainless Steel is extremely brittle. No stretch in the metal like steel or brass as you tighten the bolt. A steel bolt will stretch while tightening and begin to twist before snapping or breaking, stainless zero if any movement they just break!

    With all due respect,
    I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you said.

    For example, I can tap holes using a form tap in stainless because it's soft and malleable.

    Working with stainless is more similar to aluminum than it is to steel when it comes to choosing tooling and it's far from brittle.
    but it isn't just the brittle or hard quality that leads to the calling, I think but an actually microscopic surface nature of the stainless.

    still, I have to side with pecmsg on this brittleness question. trying to tap stainless 1/2" pipe thread I always get threads galling off even with sharp new taps. This is how I make offset couplings for radiator returns, is to take a hex coupling and drill it eccentricly and making it into a bushing because eccentric couplings are absurdly expensive (and a bushing is usually a more efficient fitting for this purpose than an eccentric coupling anyway). I wanted to use brass which is easier to work but you cannot get a solid hex plug in brass in 1 and 1/4 or 1 and 1/2 which is the native size for most of the cast iron radiators i work with. So now i'm buying steel plugs from graingers because they thread better. stainless is brittle, relatively speaking to the standard steel bolt alloys. and it doesn't have as high a shear strength as rated bolts but I still stock virtually all stainless hardware (e.g. come on over to my basement and i can give you 1 and 1/2 to 2 and 1/2" x 7/16" stainless bolts for circulator flanges. I have had pretty good success but get waxed lock nuts for 1/4 and 5/16 and avoid stainless locknuts on 3/16 stainless.)
    I just tapped 160 5/16-18 holes in 304 stainless steel at 200 rpm.
    Not one thread had an issue.

    I assure you, stainless in general is very ductile. There is no question. :)

    I've heard stainless called soft, sticky etc. Never brittle. That's a first for me.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,398
    It was a 5/16 carriage bolt for a porch railing and it was about 20 degrees out. It was not a self locking nut, just a plain stainless nut on a stainless bolt. I have an antenna coil that is enclosed in a box held together with about a dozen #10 machine screws and nylock nuts and I always have some of those seize and break when I try to disassemble that.

    Keep in mind there are many very different alloys of stainless. Generally stainless work hardens so as you drill then tap you harden the surface which I think affect machineability. It is much easier to drill stainless aggressively with a sharp cobalt drill than it is to drill it with a finer chip because you are trying to cut the surface you just hardened with the last rotatiuon of the drill.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    edited December 2019
    mattmia2 said:

    It was a 5/16 carriage bolt for a porch railing and it was about 20 degrees out. It was not a self locking nut, just a plain stainless nut on a stainless bolt. I have an antenna coil that is enclosed in a box held together with about a dozen #10 machine screws and nylock nuts and I always have some of those seize and break when I try to disassemble that.

    Keep in mind there are many very different alloys of stainless. Generally stainless work hardens so as you drill then tap you harden the surface which I think affect machineability. It is much easier to drill stainless aggressively with a sharp cobalt drill than it is to drill it with a finer chip because you are trying to cut the surface you just hardened with the last rotatiuon of the drill.

    Now that I can agree with.
    I spend most of my life machining 304 and 316SS now and it can be very painful if done wrong.

    What's really fun is if you burn up a drill bit in a part because it work hardens the material in the hole.

    I often use normal uncoated HSS drills in it but prefer carbide with thru coolant.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    @mattmia2

    Here's some 1" holes I was drilling in 316SS using an indexable drill

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    ChrisJ said:

    It seems to me if you're galling stainless steel tightening against a porcelain fixture something is wrong. Honestly it seems impossible for that size bolt and nut.

    Even aluminum shouldn't have much of an issue under such light pressure.

    Has anyone actually had an issue removing 316 SS bolts and nuts from a toilet tank?

    THIS ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    ChrisJ said:

    mattmia2 said:

    It was a 5/16 carriage bolt for a porch railing and it was about 20 degrees out. It was not a self locking nut, just a plain stainless nut on a stainless bolt. I have an antenna coil that is enclosed in a box held together with about a dozen #10 machine screws and nylock nuts and I always have some of those seize and break when I try to disassemble that.

    Keep in mind there are many very different alloys of stainless. Generally stainless work hardens so as you drill then tap you harden the surface which I think affect machineability. It is much easier to drill stainless aggressively with a sharp cobalt drill than it is to drill it with a finer chip because you are trying to cut the surface you just hardened with the last rotatiuon of the drill.

    Now that I can agree with.
    I spend most of my life machining 304 and 316SS now and it can be very painful if done wrong.

    What's really fun is if you burn up a drill bit in a part because it work hardens the material in the hole.

    I often use normal uncoated HSS drills in it but prefer carbide with thru coolant.
    all of that makes sense. I don't machine anything at high speed. i run drill slow and sharp one hopes. when you say cobalt drill r you talking coating or a solid alloy?

    and the thing i can't figure is why we had so much trouble tapping the stainless with pipe tipe. Admittedly only high speed steel, but the tap seem to cut but the material galled. this was strictly hand threading. I wouldn't have believed that we work hardened the sides of the hole to a great degree but i guess i could be wrong. i'm not sure the alloy of that stainless hex. i gotta go see who i got it from
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,461
    I have disassembled a lot of solar thermal roof top arrays, occasionally the stainless bolts will not come apart, they loosen a turn or two, lock up and eventually you end up snapping them off. I don't know if it is the grade of stainless or just bad luck that causes them to gall sometimes.

    I always run a bit of chap stick on the ss bolt threads, it may make someones job easier when the try to take them apart.

    There are probably dozens of different types of ss alloy the have different working properties. 304 and 316 are commonly stocked fittings around here, different food processing applications require certain grades of ss from what the process piping welders I know tell me.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    @hot_rod I always buy waxed stainless bolts in smaller sizes. hadn't thought of chap stick but why not.

    and adding to my woes, i finally found a bulk offering on rubber tank washers:

    http://168.215.203.131/prod/cat6/fasten.php

    only to find out this sku was discontinued when Harvey was bought by Oatey.

    instead the washers are available in 4 packs. somebody somewhere must have bulk quantities to put into 4 packs but nobody is owning up to it.

    i'm still unable to locate anything beyond guess work as to the sizing, appropriate thickness and appropriate durometer (hardness) range so I might be able to select generic replacement (although finding the equivalent of a rubber fender washer is a little harder than finding a rubber washer). I don't know what part of the industry keeps such standards or whether it is simply so ironically generic that manufacturers just make approximations with a standard specifications.

  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    @ChrisJ I did have a few issues removing ss nuts from ss bolts. And every time I could not remove the toilet safely from the closet flange. Had to cut the ss bolts, which is not a easy task in those tight quarters, or I had to break the toilet to remove it from the floor. For those reasons I will never use ss to install a toilet. It's just passing on trouble to the next guy.
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    mattmia2 said:

    Why not just figure out the individual parts and buy them in bulk from mcmaster-carr?

    I'm finally throwing in the towel. we have met the enemy and he is us. Mcmaster carr did not come through with specialized hardware to match, but no thanks to various search engines, but rather dogged persistance i finally found present bulk offerings.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jones-Stephens-C03810-Cloth-Inserted-Washer-Box-of-100

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jones-Stephens-C02852-Round-Stainless-Steel-Washer

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jones-Stephens-C03801-5-16-18-3-Brass-Tank-Bolt

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Fluidmaster-6101-FLUIDMASTER-6101-2-3-4-Tank-to-Bowl-Bolts


    OK, so trying not to transgress discussion of price which i presume is meant not to be nickle and diming advertisers or undercutting with advertising in the posts, and i'm down with that, but I'm just trying to look at the economics of supply and unit pricing sometimes without touting any supplier.

    So let me say without numbers that a box of 100 rubber washers and 100 stainless washers and bare brass bolts divided up into sets of two bolts and 4 of each washers matching the blister packed kits (nevermind the nuts which i throw away because they are plated steel) costs noticeably more than buying the kits individually. It wouldn't surpise me if this is because it is so time consuming to actually find the bulk offerings so they don't move many units, ergo the stocking cost per unit increases as they dwell longer.

    I surrender to the blister pack world. I'm not a big anti-plastic nut or anything. I am a just a believer in buying in bulk to save money moreso than packaging. But it is abundantly clear that the blister packed kits so dominate this market they are the way to go. (Not to mention this is the real bargain if you need the foam washer):

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Fluidmaster-6102-FLUIDMASTER-6102-2-3-4-Tank-to-Bowl-Bolts-and-Gasket

    Case closed but

    Final Note: Because the least expensive sets with solid brass bolts have plated nuts, i'm going to use stainless flange nuts that i stock anyway and that adds a quarter for 4 nuts. you could go brass for maybe twice that.

    Don't know if my own tortured decisionmaking will ever help anyone cut a corner in terms of the opportunity cost of finding [out] this crap but, going away, search is the biggest problem, even in the internet age.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    @archibald tuttle Brass is less a issue then ss for what we do for a living .
    If you look up tank to bowl bolt kits you might find a more simple supply option.


  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,053
    I used Wolverine Brass tank bolts on my one toilet.

    I think they're solid brass but I doubt they were a good price.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    Intplm. said:

    @archibald tuttle Brass is less a issue then ss for what we do for a living .
    If you look up tank to bowl bolt kits you might find a more simple supply option.

    can you clarify how you are distinguishing brass and stainless.

    i did spend considerable time (too considerable by my wife's lights) looking at sets and in the end i went with fluidmaster 6102, best value even against buying parts in bulk individually.

    ChrisJ said:

    I used Wolverine Brass tank bolts on my one toilet.

    I think they're solid brass but I doubt they were a good price.

    there are great things said about wolverine brass bolts as having the heaviest largest brass heads and being the industry standard for pros, but they have relatively limited availability. This all started because the big orange box stopped carrying solid brass option. That was one of few things that we were one offing and when you need something from electric, plumbing, tools, hardware and lumber which is our daily itinerary it is easier to go to the one place. Obviously Wolverine is a procounter brand and honestly i might have paid a bit more for those but in the end i've been using fluidmaster solid brass successfully for years and now have established about the most cost effective purchasing strategy and I realize can save time and money stocking some other unique toilet accessories that we were one-offing for difficult jobs.

    just to hijack my own thread, has anyone tried any of these stabilizing systems for johnny bolts. i've actually taken to using 5/16 stainless carriage in some applications because they stand up better, but still need the traditional option for certain flanges and applications. But these would be the kind of options i'm looking at for stocking or better ideas? I'm suspicious about the last in the list which is aluminum and i just don't like aluminum but in terms of systems that stand the bolts the best when i'm looking to slam a bowl down with body filler that is hardening almost as fast as I can work I need the best standup system. (Come to think of it, i put down saran wrap on the floor and pull the toilet up once the body filler is hardened to put in the wax or synthetic ring so i could use those aluminum bolts as locators and then remove them and leave a standard set as the permanent attachments and just keep the aluminum set as a tool in my box rather than leaving sets in situ):

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/RJS-Tech-53990-SetFast-5-16-x-3-Self-Adjusting-Closet-Bolts-1-pair

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hercules-90904-Johni-Quick-Bolt-1-4

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Sani-Seal-BFBL-Big-Foot-Bolts-with-Bolt-Holder
  • archibald tuttlearchibald tuttle Member Posts: 682
    bumping. any feedback on these johnny bolt alternatives with various viagra technologies?

  • BobZmudaBobZmuda Member Posts: 10
    Johni-bolt brand nuts and bolts are solid brass.

    As for the washers. What you're looking for are viton washers. Standard EPDM rubber will degrade over time with the chlorine residuals that are in our water. I know for a fact that viton will last nearly indefinitely even in a 12.5% sodium hypochlorite solution, which is far higher than anyone will see in their toilet tank. Even if they filled their tank with household bleach.

    Your flushometer woes can also be solved by using zurn's blue parts. Ever taken one apart and had black rubber crap all over your hands? It's from the chlorine. I've left a zurn diaphram in a 12.5% sodium hypochlorite (bleach) solution for 6 months and it was fine.
  • BobZmudaBobZmuda Member Posts: 10
    Also, stainless will gall. I've had good results with anti sieze. Get the good nickel based high temp stuff. It doesn't turn to a puddy as easily. Also works well for steel piping and plugs and whatnot for boilers.
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