Chemicals to treat surging in steam boiler

Rem77

Hi,
I would like to ask the pros what chemical they have used with good results to treat priming and surging? I have been using a natural product called "Steam Clean", for about 8 years.
I have attached the picture . I manage a building with 20 apartments and several other properties. This one color codes the water to let you know when to add more. It seems to work well but I would like to experiment with other products.

Thanks
Bob

KC_Jones

Most of the people on here do proper skimming of the boiler to remove the oils, so typically no chemicals required.

Others have mentioned using washing soda and skimming.

It is pretty well agreed on here that there isn't a substitute for skimming, which I believe that product you are showing claims.

I'm curious how they claim it removes oil and grease, the only way to actually remove it is to get it out of the boiler.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

Most of the people on here do proper skimming of the boiler to remove the oils, so typically no chemicals required.

Others have mentioned using washing soda and skimming.

It is pretty well agreed on here that there isn't a substitute for skimming, which I believe that product you are showing claims.

I'm curious how they claim it removes oil and grease, the only way to actually remove it is to get it out of the boiler.

Causes it to sink to the bottom some how?
I don't know, but I think Steamaster does something similar with minerals etc.

Hap_Hazzard

I'm not a pro, but in my opinion, you don't need to add something when a boiler is surging. You need to remove something, specifically the film on the surface of the water that's making it harder for the steam bubbles to break through. The thicker that film is, the bigger the bubbles have to get before they can break through, so the boiling action is more violent and more water is pushed up the risers.

To remove that film you need to skim the boiler.

Raise the water level up to the level of the skim port, heat the water to just below the boiling point, open the skim port and let the water drain into a large bucket. Keep filling the bucket and emptying it until there's nothing floating to the top. It helps if you add about two ounces of washing soda (aka soda ash) per 100 EDR to the water before skimming, then drain the boiler completely and refill when you're done.

Some of us here like to use SteamMaster tablets or 8-Way, both made by Rectorseal, to maintain the correct pH and hardness and minimize corrosion, but we generally add these after we've taken care of any skimming and/or blow-downs that are necessary to remove grease, oil, sludge or sediment that could hinder performance, and we never use as much as the label says to use.

Hap_Hazzard

KC_Jones said:

I'm curious how they claim it removes oil and grease, the only way to actually remove it is to get it out of the boiler.

Surfactants (e.g. synthetic detergents) can disperse oil in water by forming micelles around the oil molecules, so what you end up with is a colloidal suspension of micelles and, obviously, foaming. Washing soda and TSP can also disperse oils in water with a minimum of foaming, but still, it's much better to remove it. The main difference is that a small amount of TSP or washing soda that gets left behind after you drain and refill the boiler isn't going to do any harm, but even a trace amount of detergent will cause enough foaming to drive water up the risers and even prevent a probe-type LWCO from detecting low water. I don't know what this product might be using, but I'd bet you don't want to leave it in the boiler.

A lot of these products might actually be useful if they didn't tell you to leave them in. Almost anything you add to water is going to raise the boiling point, so unless you have a really good reason for adding it, don't!

Rem77

Steam Clean makes the dirt sink to the bottom of the boiler. I have a ball valve at the bottom where I release the dirty water.

Hap_Hazzard

But will it make oil sink? That'd be a neat trick. I'd have to see that to believe it.

KC_Jones

My comment is based on the product label "removes grease and oil"
The only way to actually do that is to literally remove it, no chemical can actually remove anything in a closed vessel.

I feel their label is misleading at best, it gives people a false sense of security in what is going on with the boiler.

To clarify the answer to the OP's original question, there are no chemicals needed to stop priming and surging.

If you like it have at it, but that chemical doesn't get much, if any, love on this site.

ChrisJ

Hap_Hazzard said:

But will it make oil sink? That'd be a neat trick. I'd have to see that to believe it.

This is the best I can do, but it's a stretch.

Rem77

Hi
Thanks for all the response. Much respect.

Bob

Hap_Hazzard

Rem77 said:

Thanks for all the response. Much respect.

Likewise. We may not like the product, but we're glad you came here and asked. Bear in mind that none of us have tried this particular product, but we've seen a lot of similar products and similar claims, so we're inclined to be skeptical.

Also, so far none of the pros have weighed in yet. They're probably all out fixing and installing boilers today. If any of them disagree with me, I'll stand corrected. However, this is a topic that comes up frequently, and the general consensus has been roughly what's been expressed here.

Personally, I come from a science and engineering background, and when I find my theoretical understanding aligning with what the pros say, based on their years and years of experience, intensive training and shared wisdom, I feel pretty confident about it.

nicholas bonham-carter

I put the Arm&Hammer in our new boiler, on the first firing,10 years ago, this month. I let it simmer by cycling the power on and off for an hour or so. I then opened the 2 inch full port valve on the skimming port, and with temporary piping connected over to the floor drain, cracked open the manual fill valve. This let the cold feed water stay under the hot washing soda soup, and pushed it slowly out the skimming port. After an hour or so, the water was running cold and clear so I stopped.
I did a couple of 2 hour skims in subsequent weeks, which was made easier by the piping over to the floor drain.
Only last year did I get on the Steamaster train, because of having to clean a rusty residue off the inside of the glass tube weekly.
The tube still stains, but at a much slower rate.
I think Squick is basically a diatomaceous earth which is ”supposed” to absorb the oils, sink to the bottom, and be drained out.
It is really time to devise piping configurations which will collect the oils in a separate part of the wet returns, and periodically be drained off the water column at water line height. maybe the collection point could be in a float LWCO where at every blow down, the oil would be drained.
Think of the time and money which could be saved if the boiler could clean itself without the tedium of watching a constant dribble into a floor drain, or a bucket.—NBC

Hap_Hazzard

I didn't see diatomaceous earth in the MSDS for Squick. I would consider it a hazardous ingredient, but I could be wrong.

nicholas bonham-carter

It could be Labeled organic as it is the skeletons of tiny one-celled creatures, and it is used in fish tank filters.—NBC

Canucker

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
> I didn't see diatomaceous earth in the MSDS for Squick. I would consider it a hazardous ingredient, but I could be wrong.

It's biggest hazard would be ingesting it into your lungs. Probably not going to happen if it's in a liquid, although I've worked with some right idiots that could make it happen

Hap_Hazzard

The product I looked up was a dry powder. They say there's a "moderate" inhalation hazard, but, under hazardous ingredients, it says, "no hazardous components." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯