Weil McClain gold vs Burderus

cvh8601

I’m trying to get a boiler replaced, and have a few quotes.

My question is regarding how much more the group thinks a burderus setup is than a Weil McClain 4 section. I really want a 3-pass but my Weil McClain installer has had some bad customer feedback on the ultra and won’t install. Meanwhile the 4 section install is about $5k less than the burderus quote I have. I’m sure the burderus will make that up over the life of the unit but that’s a steep initial delta.

Thoughts and advice?

HVACNUT

Your contractor wants to install a Weil McLain GO, pin HX boiler over a Buderus? (G115-3 I assume.)
It's a no brainer. Get a new contractor. BTW, did he do a heat loss calculation?
The Ultra Oil, although not my favorite 3 pass, does well with the Beckett NX.

STEVEusaPA

Did anyone do a proper heat loss? 3 (or worse yet 4) section is pretty big. You don't want to oversize.

Jamie Hall

If you contractor is happier with the Weil-McClain, it's not a bad boiler either. And it is very important that the folks doing the install like working with whatever it is they are installing...

cvh8601

I haven’t been successful in getting anyone to do a heat loss calc. My own best estimates using online calculators put me somewhere in the 60-75kBTU/hr on a design day for my area which makes my existing 150k boiler about 2x oversized. Additionally I’m working on getting some weatherization done which should significantly improve existing heat loss by attic insulation and air sealing.

That said, my existing oil company is experienced with Weil McClain so I can’t fault them for proposing that. My only local burderus installer (per the bosch website) that I was able to get a hold of had the high bid (G115WS) so I was looking for other options.

My basic dilemma is whether I’m going to have a shot of making up $5k in oil in the next 10 years or so by having G115 + logamatic. That’s our current best guess on when we’ll need to move on.

HVACNUT

Although the 2107 Logamatic is a nice control, you don't need it. It is expensive. The supplied Hydrostat 3250 Plus is also a very good aquastat.
I cant believe there's a contractor who doesn't offer a 3 pass boiler as an option.
The WGO-2 (TWO) has a net IBR of 75K BTU's. Still oversized, forget about a 4 section. The G115-3 has a net IBR of 74K BTU's and can be downfired per Buderus specs.
A heads up if it wasn't mentioned. A stainless steel chimney liner will be needed if there's not one already there.

JacquesD23

Weil Mclain's are not what they used to be pre-2003. I have had so many Golds leak around the 14 year mark that its not even funny. One time I replaced 3 in one week, all under 14 years old. Never have any Buderus G115/3 leakers.... I would strongly advise that you go with the Buderus.

Jamie Hall

I beg to differ. Two counts.

First, I have always said -- and will continue to say -- that the installer is 90% of the success of the job, regardless of the brand name on the boiler (unless you get something which fell off the back of the truck). In your situation, then, I'd take a very good look at the Weil-McClain, unless you plan to switch oil dealers and servicing companies as well.

Second, will you save the difference in cost from the higher efficiency? Unlikely, unless your oil costs are very high. For computation, you will save around 5% of your oil cost per year with the Buderus. You do the math.

And finally a comment for the Buderus advocates: you do have a very high quality product to sell, and I can't and won't fault it. If you don't have the dealer and service network that can compete on price, though, you have a problem.

STEVEusaPA

OP, city, state, how many gallons of oil did you burn last season? I can probably give you a pretty close guesstimate.

Although I agree about finding the right contractor, sticking in a pinner, and getting it properly cleaned are to entirely different animals. Triple pass, or EK every time. Unless you're hell-bent on getting domestic how water thru a coil, then I'd recommend an EK, or a triple pass w/indirect.

Many times a homeowner get an install by one company (specifically a plumber), but serviced by someone else. This is usually where you see the cheapest equipment, return piping blocking the swing out door, and the expansion tank and boiler piping right over the boiler so you can get in there to clean the heat exchanger.

As far as getting a return for your investment...
Your best results will come from a properly sized, properly installed boiler. Spending money on tightening your building envelope will help even more, and allow you to get even a smaller boiler (if you're not already getting the smallest), but still save you money on oil.
If the same contractor priced 2 different boilers and one is 5k more, he's a crook, or just doesn't want you to have that boiler.
If the prices come from 2 different contractors, compare the detailed quote. One is probably showing up with 4 pipe couplings (supply, return, water feed, expansion tank) and doing a quick swap, and one might be re-doing (properly fixing) all your near boiler piping, new exp. tank, new water feed, new controls/circs, pumping away, etc.

Grallert

The Buderus is a higher quality boiler and will require the addition of some sort of water heater. There's the extra cost. Any cast iron boiler will be happiest with an indirect water heater. In my opinion the Buderus is easier to clean, so it will get cleaned. The Logomatic is nice but likely unneeded, depends on your emitters. The burners are where some techs get stymied though there's little excuse for it these days. G115 with a Riello is hard to beat.

cvh8601

Do I understand correctly that the Hydrastat 3250 comes with the Burderus if logamatic is not installed? If that’s the case that does handle some of the $5k price difference. I was planning on having that unit on the Weil McClain anyway, so having that on the burderus increases the attractiveness of that option.

In defense of both contractors in question, the Weil McClain and burderus were two different contractors, and the note that the burderus install includes a bunch of pipe replacement expansion tank replacement, etc while the Weil McClain was quotes more plug and play applies. Chimney has already been lined despite the 40 year old existing boiler.

My current unit has a tankless coil which I’ve disconnected in favor of a hybrid electric hot water heater.

Over the past 2 winters we’ve used about 900 gallons each year. That’s with relatively cool indoor temp settings so I’m expecting to burn some of my insulation savings on increased temp.

STEVEusaPA

900 gallons a year, but which city/state?

Jamie Hall

If you are burning 900 gallons a year, a high efficiency mod/con boiler, perfectly optimized for your building and climate, might save you as much as 90 gallons of fuel in a year -- which, depending on your fuel cost, could easily amount to $300 a year in fuel costs. On the other hand, the lost income from the extra capital used would be around $250 a year, so your net savings would be around $50 per year. Or about two extra Happy Meals for yourself and the family...

Solid_Fuel_Man

There are other options for 3 pass oil other than Buberus. Pensotti (Granby) Trio (FW Webb branded Solia) and others.

I would always go with a 3 pass for ease of cleaning and lower standby loss. At least you cant see the fire through the breech like with a pinner!

I like the Reillo burner on a 3 pass especially, as they like positive over fire draught.

Is gas available?

cvh8601

Sorry, were in Gaithersburg MD, about 20-30 miles north of Washington DC. A design day is 10-12F (can’t recall exact number at the moment).

No potential for gas, we’re maybe 3/4 mile from the line so our neighborhood is on its own. We investigated propane or electric, but the most economical choice continues to be oil if we want to use our hydronic baseboards which we do. We also have an a/c / heatpump unit but finished basement is not ducted and all registers are on ceiling. System is really configured for a/c only and maybe light usage for heat on the shoulder seasons. So, we need the hydronic baseboard to deal with actual cold temps.

So, I’m hearing I should expect something less than 10% efficiency improvement between the pinner and 3-pass based on the comment above? Sounds like the cost on the 3-pass might have a relatively long ROI?

Steamhead

@cvh8601 , get on the phone with Foley Mechanical, here:

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/foley-mechanical-inc

@Dan Foley is the owner. They service the entire DC metro area. Tell them Steamhead sent you.

cvh8601

I’ve spoken to Dan as recommended on this forum a couple of months ago. Unfortunately he’s a bit far south and didn’t want to get involved due to his inability to respond to emergent maintenance in a timely manner due to DC traffic.

He did recommend some others closer to me but they don’t really do residential work anymore and ended up proposing a Weil McClain gold, same as my oil company, but at a higher price. I’ve been searching on my own for other options to see what I can get in 3-pass format.

So, I’m back to the well asking for more advice. Delay is mostly because it’s taken quite a while to get quotes.

STEVEusaPA

About 49,000 btus, so smallest 3 pass boiler you can get, definitely not the 4 section.

Jamie Hall

The 3 pass high efficiency would likely have a very long ROI -- if not infinite or a loss. Sorry about that.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I dont know why. Prices for a 3 pass other than a Buderus are only a few hundred dollars more....

WGO-2 is $1700 on supply house.com
Biasi B-3 is $1,944 from AF supply.

These are public internet prices, just for comparison.

rick in Alaska

I guess I will be the guy to get beat on about this. I can guarantee I can get a Weil Mclain boiler just as clean as a Buderus boiler. The pins on the Weil Mclain are harder to get under to clean, but I find they get pretty clean anyway. The Buderus has a lot of curved section in the passages that you can not get a brush into without a lot of contortions. I would almost bet that if they both had the same amount of soot in them, or scale, that they would both have the same amount left behind in each boiler after cleaning. That being said, I can get both of them pretty clean.
Also, I can get both of them to burn with the same thermal efficiency. I will admit to the Buderus having a better annual efficiency because it does not have the standby loss that the Weil Mclain has.
I will install both of these boilers, and do, and sometimes it depends on the location it is going into. The Weil Mclain will take up a smaller footprint, but if there is room, it will be the Buderus being installed. With either one though, definitely use a Riello burner. They are almost bulletproof.
Rick

Jamie Hall

I'm not going to beat on you, @rick in Alaska ! And I will bet that @Charlie from wmass at least shouldn't -- he manages to get Cedric nice and clean for me every year!

Big Ed_4

Lower firing rate , push nipples over rubber O-rings , A true cold start boiler ,better casting .... Hmmm Buderus

Charlie from wmass

Buderus is not a very good steam boiler. I have installed both and either run very clean with about a point of efficiency better for the Buderus. I have seen both boilers crapped up due to poor maintenance and bad tuning. Pin or triple pass, push nipples versus orings, none of it matters in the hands of a competent professional. I actually prefer biasi for cast iron hot water. They have low and medium mass.