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beckett oil furnace, no hot water in summer

roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
i have a beckett oil furnace, in the summer every now an then we get hot water but most of the time we have to put on the heat to heat the water, what could be the problem, i have changed the sensor in the tank and have had 6 plumbers out and they can not fid the problem. plus is this wireing done right??




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Comments

  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 5,715
    Looks to me like you have a broken wire. In your first picture which is a pic of the burner operating control you have two cables going to the T & T terminals on that control. One cable is brown and has a red & a white wire that are connected to T & T. That cable seems to me goes to your thermostat. Trace the cable and see where. it goes.

    The other cable, the white cable has a red and a white wire also. The red is connected and the white is not connected. Looks to me that that white wire should be connected to the T terminal that only has a red wire on it now. Try it it won't hurt anything.

    But first follow that white cable and see if it goes to the hot water tank sensor.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 2,120
    The Red wire that's not connected to the primary, where does that wire go to? The Honeywell aquastat?
    Can you post a pic (not too close) of the aquastat with the cover off?
    Also the wire from the water heater thermostat goes to the aquastat? Cant really tell.
    My thinking with limited info is the circulator will run on a hot water demand but not causing the burner to fire because the Red wire is not connected.
    But please dont connect it until we can see how it's all wired.
    Now the pig tail for the pressurtrol, that's funny. It needs to be vertical so water and sediment cant get to the control and wreak havoc on the pressure, or lack thereof.
    First time I've seen that blunder.
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    yes the white cover cable with the red wire not connected is going to the thermostat but the heat still kicks in
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 5,715
    @roadrunner1980 Sorry to say you have a crappy wiring job. You need a good technician. Not a job for an average plumber unless they know electrical. Most do not. We would need all the covers removed and picture taken. Theres a lot going on there. Steam system, hot water tank and al lot of stuff mot shown
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    sorry got that wrong, the brown cover wire is going to the thermostat and both their wires are connect, the white cover wire is going to the on/off service switch and only has the white wire connect, and yes ED it is a crappy wire joj
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 5,715
    edited May 26
    I know the white cable goes into the box with the service switch on it but I doubt it is connected to the switch. that's the problem it feeds through the box and goes somewhere we don't know where it goes. The brown cable runs up on the outside of the conduit probably to the thermostat

    When the control on the hot water tank calls it starts the circulating pump ( check and see if the pump is running) The control on the hot water tank also has to start the burner which it is not doing. That's why I think that red/orange wire should be connected to T on the burner control. The circ pump and burner control are probably run by a relay in the grey Honeywell box which is controlled by the tank aquastat control
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    That is the red and white wires in the center that goes into the power box
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  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > The Red wire that's not connected to the primary, where does that wire go to? The Honeywell aquastat?
    > Can you post a pic (not too close) of the aquastat with the cover off?
    > Also the wire from the water heater thermostat goes to the aquastat? Cant really tell.
    > My thinking with limited info is the circulator will run on a hot water demand but not causing the burner to fire because the Red wire is not connected.
    > But please dont connect it until we can see how it's all wired.
    > Now the pig tail for the pressurtrol, that's funny. It needs to be vertical so water and sediment cant get to the control and wreak havoc on the pressure, or lack thereof.
    > First time I've seen that blunder.
    image.jpg
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  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    @havcnut if i shut the power off at the main switch and turn it back on after about 5 seconds i here a click as if something is trying to call for the burner to fire but noting happens, i ofter here the pump running but again the boiler is not fireing
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    @havecnut and the sad part is i bought the house 6 yrs ago and have had no luck with this, it was a plumber who owned the house before me and he did all the work himself
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 10,383
    That loose, stripped red wire in the first photo almost certainly originally went under the connection for T-T on the control -- so that the two connections for T-T would both have a red wire and a white wire, one each. If you have a multimeter and really know how to use it and are somewhat knowledgeable playing with electricity and comfortable doing so, check for continuity between that loose stripped wire and the other T-T terminal (the one with two wires) when the hot water tank is calling for heat; you should get continuity. Then check when it isn't -- you should get an open circuit. Note that if there is a relay involved, you have to have the power on. Therefore... check for voltage at all the terminals before you start poking, and think about what you are doing! If that works out, you're probably OK to just slip that loose stripped red wire under that terminal and tighten it down.

    Or get a competent heating tech. out there to check all the wiring, if you are even a little bit uncertain. You have quite the spaghetti bowl there, and it is possible that there are other problems.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    so i have connected the red wire into the T port but still noting is happening, just wondering could it have anything to do with the low water shut off,
    by the way thank you guys for any advice you give me
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    edited May 26
    @jamie hall so when i turn the on/off switch off and back on, i here a click and i think is coming from the low water safe guard, after about 5 to10 seconds, but could this be a bad relay thats making this clicking noise and that might be why it is not firing
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 2,120
    It looks like like the water heater thermostat is line volt, 120v. There is an isolation relay in the junction box with the emergency switch. When the water heater thermostat says make hot water it energizes the relay and closes the contacts that the white thermostat wire is connected to. So it could be either a bad thermostat on the water heater or a bad isolation relay.
    I would ask you to try a couple things but the way the wiring is I'm not comfortable unless you have an electrical meter.
    Its probably a simple fix but you should call a steam pro with knowledge of control wiring. I say steam pro because, well, that pig tail for one.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 5,715
    I think we are all pretty comfortable saying the tank control pulls in a relay or relays. It starts the circ pump on a call for hot water and should also start the burner. When the circ pump starts the burner should also start (unless the boiler is already up to temperature)

    If the burner does not run on a call for hot water after you reconnected the red wire you need to call a technician to see what is wrong
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    @EBEBRATT-Ed their is times i will go to the boiler room and here the circa pump running but no burner fireing for hot water, does this sound right
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 2,120
    > @roadrunner1980 said:
    > @EBEBRATT-Ed their is times i will go to the boiler room and here the circa pump running but no burner fireing for hot water, does this sound right

    That narrows it down to that relay in the emergency switch box. If you think you're able, you can find one online. You'll need a Packard PR362 fan relay. SPST, 120v coil. It's a direct replacement for what's there now. While you're at it, purchase a digital electric meter. Craftsman has one on the cheap. Shut off the circuit breaker first. Then to make sure, turn up the heat from the thermostat to make sure NOTHING operates on the boiler. Replace the relay, turn the power back on, wait an hour, then take a hot shower. Because frankly, you stink like yesterday's diapers.
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    @EBEBRATT-Ed so after ordering the part and it took them 10 days to ship. I’ve installed the relay and it still won’t fire for hot water. Now on the relay does it matter which slots into number 1 number 2 and so on
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    Could it be the aquastat relay type l8148e that is gone maybe
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    It sounds like when I put the main power back on. I here a click coming from the aquastat l8148e. But nothing happens
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  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 10,383
    On a relay it surely does matter which wire goes where. There will be two terminals which are the coil -- that gets the signal from the aquastat. There also will be two or more terminals which are switched. Those go to whatever is being controlled. That Packard relay is a simple one -- so there are only two controlled terminals, and they act like a switch.

    Verify your wiring. Then verify that you have 120 VAC across the coil terminals when the aquastat is calling for heat.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    So the white cable goes to the small relay no 2&4
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    So the white cable goes to the no 2&4 on the small relay. The the 2 black wires come out of 1&3 and go to the Honeywell aquastat relay
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  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    I'm getting power everywhere i test, it just does not make any sense, the only other thing i can think it it might be is the aqua stat l8148e relay, what else could be, I've changed the Packard PR362 fan relay,
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 10,383
    I have a feeling that you need to go back to square one. Trace and verify all the wiring. Tags are helpful...

    Then verify that the aquastat is closed when the hot water is cold, and open when the hot water is hot.

    You should not be getting 120 VAC everywhere. If the hot water is cold -- the aquastat calling -- you should get 120 VAC on one terminal of the fan relay and, unless you have an odd setup, one terminal only. When the aquastat is up to temperature -- nice and hot -- it should open, and then you shouldn't have 120 VAC on any terminal of the fan relay.

    Don't throw parts at this thing. Figure out what is supposed to do what from the wiring diagram which you make when you verify the wiring, and then figure out what isn't working.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    @Jamie Hall I’m wondering if it’s the relay on the aquastat l8148e relay. Just reading a lot of reviews on this and everybody says they relay in them burn out in 3/5 yrs. could this relay be 1 of the problems
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 10,383
    Might be. Also, might not be. As I said earlier, your best plan is to trace all the wiring involved and make a wiring diagram -- what goes where -- and figure out what each item is supposed to do. Then verify that the wiring is connected in such a way as to make things work as they are supposed to work, assuming each widget works properly. Correct any wiring problems (that loose green wire still worries me). Then test, systematically, to see where things go wrong.

    It might be a malfunctioning part. It might be a broken wire. It might be mis-wired. It might be...
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • Alan WelchAlan Welch Member Posts: 140
    6 plumbers couldn't fix it, maybe try calling your oil companies service department, they should be able to fix it,when the burners not running you don't use any oil.
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    edited June 12
    @alan welch, i have had 3 of their guys out to look at it, they do the same as the rest of the plumbers/electricians I've had here, they tinker around at it, get running till winter and the heat is on, and then the next summer I'm back to square one, no not burning any oil when the burners not running, but i have no hot water at 5am when we get up to take a shower for work
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 10,383
    Where are you? This sort of thing isn't rocket science, but it is quite clear that whoever you have had look at it hasn't taken the time -- or doesn't know how -- to trace and troubleshoot controls. It's possible, depending on where you are, that we might know someone.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    yonkers ny, thats whats driving me nuts, i just had to put the heat on to get hot water for my wife to take a shower, she's a nurse after coming off a 12 hour shift and is 8 months pregnant, between her driving me crazy and this lol
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 10,383
    edited June 12
    try @JohnNY , (Gateway Plumbing and Heating, 212-980-0909) or @Danny Scully (Scully's Plumbing and Heating, 516-887-1122) . Odds are that either one of them can get you nice hot water in about an hour...
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 2,852
    I feel bad that your wife is 8 mos pregnant and on her feet 12 hrs a day (plus commuting).
    Get one of the guys @Jamie Hall recommended.
    steve
  • Alan WelchAlan Welch Member Posts: 140
    What are the temperature settings on the 8148 aquastat? And you definitely hooked up one wire from each of the 2 thermostat wires to the lower 2 terminals on the primary control?
  • Alan WelchAlan Welch Member Posts: 140
    The brown wire should be the thermostat wire, and the blue and green wires are probably extra so aren't hooked up. The red wire that isn't hooked up in the 1st picture should start the burner when you put it on the same terminal as the single white wire from the thermostat if the boiler temp is low and there is a demand for hot water. If the circulator runs constantly then the tank sensor is ok.,you just have to figure out why the burner doesn't start.
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    edited June 12
    @alan welch the temp on the 8148 is at 220 and the one in the tank is at 160, the green wire is just a spare wire, not connected on other end, the brown wire goes to the thermostat in the living room, the white wire goes to the small relay behind the power shut off switch which i just changed, i have connected the red wire in beside the white wire, i just feel at this stage it has to be the relay on the 8148, like i was saying, i go to basement and here the pump running but the boiler is not fireing to heat the water, this is a first for me, most thing i figure out quick myself but never seen a problem like this, i relay an thankful to everyone of you guys for trying to help me,
  • roadrunner1980roadrunner1980 Member Posts: 26
    in the pic with the white and brown wires, you have them going into the number 3 and 3t slot, what usually goes into the number 1 and 2 slots?? just curious
  • Alan WelchAlan Welch Member Posts: 140
    That could be the problem. Usually the terminals marked tt are used to start the burner, but looking at the wiring diagram for that control it shows other ways to wire using one of the upper terminals. I would call your oil company, explain the situation and ask to have the service manager come and check it out.
  • Alan WelchAlan Welch Member Posts: 140
    If you remove the white wire from the relay you replaced and jump the 2 wires together does the burner start? It's possible the wire is no good from running in front of the observation hole on the front of the boiler.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 2,120
    The thing is, we're limited on the advice we can give because in this case, without you having an electric meter we can only go so far. And whoever did the wiring in the first place should be ashamed of themselves. It's a rats nest.
    Your best bet is to do what Jamie said and place a call to the gents he recommended.
    It very well could be a faulty boiler aquastat but one should never just throw parts at it to try and beat the odds. The house always wins in the end.
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