Notre Dame Cathedral

Tinman

in Paris is ablaze. Speculation is that it’s related to renovations taking place. Either way, it’s a shame.

I sure hope it wasn’t a torch.

In the 80’s, I was installing ductwork in a house in Chicago when the plumber got careless soldering. The entire building was engulfed in flames within 10-15 minutes. One the scariest things I’ve experienced.

Let’s be careful out there.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Oh no! That's awful.

SeanBeans

=O

That’s horrible

Jamie Hall

Whole roof and spire, at least... and all the windows, including the great western rose.

Renovations are a nightmare.

Intplm.

Said. And I had the pleasure of touring the Cathedral a few years back. Was beautiful. Looks terrible on the news. The salvage process will take years.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Doesn't look good watching it now. French President declaring a national emergency...they want to try and save some of the art.

Survived world wars etc now this
very sad

Jamie Hall

From the latest videos (4:00 Eastern Daylight) it looks really devastating... you would think the stonework might survive, but not necessarily. It may be a total loss... catastrophe.

DanHolohan

It breaks my heart. I will never forget our visits there. Saying a rosary.

SeanBeans

Apparently there’s a piece of the cross that held Jesus in the cathedral.

DanHolohan

His Crown of Thorns was in there.

Big Ed_4

A year or two back Kitty and I was there . Being a typical male New Yorker I decided to take the shorter line to the left in the square rather then the large line though the front ..It looked like a basement entrance ,I will be cool with that...Nope it went up , small steep narrow endless spiral stairs all the way up to Quasimodo's penthouse . My heart was pounding out of my chest trying to keep up with the group ... OK I made it up there , plenty of time catching my wind . Take a few photos over looking Paris making sure to add a gargoyle ... What ever goes up must come down ... Let me just say Vertigo .... Beautiful place , it's really a tragedy

ttekushan_3

Apparently the art and artifacts were safely removed, including the crown of thorns. But the rest– and the windows are devastated by the fire.

Notre Dame rose to transcend its Frenchness and Catholic origins. In my mind, it also belongs to all humanity that recognizes higher aspirations and is willing to accept a guiding hand to do so.

In these times this tragedy may be a good reminder that there’s truly more that unifies us rather than divides us. I hope it sticks.

Steamhead

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Doesn't look good watching it now. French President declaring a national emergency...they want to try and save some of the art.

Survived world wars etc now this
very sad

Couldn't survive stupid.

STEVEusaPA

So sad. We were there a few years ago and had a pretty extensive tour.

DanHolohan

I’m watching The Hunchback of Notre Dame right now. Good perspective.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Well, what kind of heating system did it have?

Steam I hope

Jamie Hall

Looks as though I may have been unduly pessimistic and just possibly the stone vaulting may have survived -- which would mean that the some of the glass may also have survived. Which would be little short of a miracle -- and a testament to the skill of the masons, 800 years ago, who built it...

Erin Holohan Haskell

It looks like all three of the stained glass rose windows were saved.

In Gothic architecture, they added the stone vaulting to prevent the spread of fire to the rest of the building if the wooden roof above were to catch fire. (Nicknamed "The Forest", there were 52-acres-worth of trees that made up the roof beams.)

It looks like the vaulting did its job, but... The limestone that makes up the building's exoskeleton could still crack if exposed to high heat, especially if it is doused with cooler water, affecting the structural integrity of the building.

As for the heating system, the Notre Dame Cathedral is on Paris' district heating system. More info here: http://www.districlima.com/districlima/uploads/descargas/publicaciones/District_Energy_-_Paris_Cover_Story_FR.pdf and here: https://www.districtenergy.org/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=b7d8029e-fb30-d023-a362-50f251a39458

In the crypt under the courtyard, there are remnants of a Roman hypocaust, one of the most ancient heating systems: http://www.crypte.paris.fr/en/crypt/more-2000-years-history

DanHolohan

Nice research, Erin. Thanks!

Jamie Hall

Thanks, Erin! And it does look from what I've seen this morning that the three rose windows may have survived -- although at least some of the clerestory windows look pretty bad. It also looks as though the infill fell in two areas, but from the pictures the actual vault ribs may have survived... it will be months, though, before the structural evaluation can be completed.

SeanBeans

If any of you are into reading 8)

World Without End & Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett are two novels about the building of cathedrals and architecture of cathedrals.

Of course there is much more to the books but if this tragedy has you itching for a book to read, those are them!

DanHolohan

That book is magnificent.

Jamie Hall

There is a also a book about the building of the National Cathedral in Washington -- it wasn't finished (isn't yet) when it was written, and it's a rather limited edition -- but worth looking for: For Thy Great Glory.

And, for that matter, if you are in the New York area and haven't visited St. John the Divine, or in Washington, and haven't visited the National Cathedral (which, incidentally, has a rose window the equal of any in the world), they're worth the visit.

nicholas bonham-carter

Yet some more German thoughts on fire prevention:

https://p.dw.com/p/3Gwno

DanHolohan

Saint John the Devine is breathtaking. They should be finished with that one in about a hundred years.

Jean-David Beyer

I read the the smaller pipe organ was totally destroyed, but the big one was spared. And the big rose window was spared as well as the two towers with the bells in it.

Also, in March (IIRC) there was a fire at the St. Sulpice church.

Jamie Hall

There are -- or were -- several organs in Notre Dame (there are in most cathedrals, for that matter. Apparently the main organ was saved...

Here's a YouTube of what it was like, and God willing will be again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRVG42lGUkY&t=543s

mikeg2015

Amazing. Almost 200 years to construct and an accident likely with a grinder or torch and inadequate protections, detectors, contingency plan or fire watch and poof, badly damaged in a couple hours.

Sounds like given the time period, they designed them with fire from a burnt roof or a siege of the city in mind and stone vaults provide the roof structure. The wooden roof is just a weather barrier mainly.

With a background in industrial maintenance and facilities, I remind my boss that we really should always have a fire extinguisher, even a small one for any hot work indoors and a large 10lb extinguisher in the install truck regardless.

Steamhead

Jamie Hall said:

There are -- or were -- several organs in Notre Dame (there are in most cathedrals, for that matter. Apparently the main organ was saved...

Here's a YouTube of what it was like, and God willing will be again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRVG42lGUkY&t=543s

Wow. What a performance. IIRC that organ was originally built by Cavaille-Coll, the premier French organ builder of the 19th century, and has had numerous upgrades over its life. Look at the extensive number of stop knobs to the left of the organist, and realize that's only half of them. It's a huge instrument, corresponding to the huge building it lives in.

My vote for one of the works to be played for its inaugural performance when the cathedral is reopened is this piece. Its composer was French, and was also an organist, and the work describes a journey from darkness to light:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWCZq33BrOo

Jamie Hall

Fancy your knowing that it is mostly a Cavaille-Coll! You never fail to amaze me, @Steamhead ! And yes, it has had a number of upgrades, including four major ones -- the most recent in 2014. And indeed, the Saint-Saens would be a good choice for at least part of a celebration of renewal! So would one of the Franck Chorales...

Steamhead

This one too- again, a French composer. This rendition is on the Moucherel organ at St Cecile cathedral in Albi, France. Unfortunately, the iPhone used to record it doesn't do it justice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGDiA3fidA

Edit- just remembered the comments don't appear when a YouTube video is embedded this way. This is the Prelude to Te Deum by Marc-Antoine Charpentier. I've played this in a brass-and-organ arrangement.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Pipe organs have always been a huge (literally) fascination. I think it was said that there were two things in the 19th century which were world renowned: watchmakers and organ builders. The total mass of lead and wood, poplar I believe, and the sheer size and amount of mechanical workings is almost beyond comprehension.

A pipe in an organ is like an oil burner, in or off, no modulation. So to accomplish modulation (swell) they use (massive) wooden shutters to regulate the amount of sound which actually reached the ears of the audience. FASCINATING!

Jamie Hall

I presume, @Steamhead , that you play organ? So do I... it is a wonderful instrument to play -- any size! -- but the big ones are an experience with no equal.

I might add -- in sort of extension to @Solid_Fuel_Man 's comment, that in many organs -- Notre Dame's was, until the 2014 work -- the keys are directly connected to the valves which operate the pipes. It's termed "tracker action", and it rivals the complexity of fine watches! Notre Dame's does have a sort of pneumatic power boost -- kind of like power steering for organs! -- which keeps the action from being too heavy or too slow. As it happens, both the organs which I play regularly are trackers -- one from 1880, and one from 1980. The one I learned on, though, was huge -- but fortunately had electric action (each pipe had it's own little electrically operated valve -- the wiring was... complex).

Steamhead

Jamie Hall said:

I presume, @Steamhead , that you play organ? So do I... it is a wonderful instrument to play -- any size! -- but the big ones are an experience with no equal.

Nope- tuba. I never had the level of coordination one needs for keyboards, to say nothing of pedals. But the four valves of a tuba are well within my capability, and when brass meets organ anything is possible.

JUGHNE

Pipe organ question;
A 1915 church here had a bellows power pipe organ and then eventually an electric air blower was installed in the basement.
Today all is replaced with electric organ.
The pipes remain for ascetic purposes.
Having worked around and above them, the pipes look to be thin tin.
On the back side of the pipes a 3/8" strip was cut and part of it was rolled down into a spiral, as the old coffee cans or sardine tin cans.
Was this the method of fine tuning the pitch?

Steamhead

On certain pipes, yes. This video shows some of how it's done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37TCOE_Mde0

Jean-David Beyer

One of the best preserved Cavaillé-Coll organs in Paris is the one at St. Suplice. It was rebuilt by Cavaillé-Coll starting in 1862, and reused many of the excellent pipes made by his predecessor François Cliquot (who was a cousin, I believe, of the Vintner who widow carried on the champagne business) who built it in 1776. Cavaillé-Coll used a Barker Lever mechanism to drive both the key-pipe connections and the stop selection mechanism. Without that (in those days), it would have been impossible to play that organ, especially when manuals were coupled, because the force required to press the keys.

They had a fire at St. Sulpice in March.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOyHci0j518

Jamie Hall

It's the Barker Lever to which I was referring with my crack about power steering for organs -- and quite true, even on small organs the key force can get unplayably high when couplers are used.

The Saint-Sulpice organ is very fine indeed.

And @Steamhead -- you are a brave man. Tuba is easy enough to pick up after a fashion, but is a bear to play beautifully.

JUGHNE

Thanks, Steamhead.
Only the large pipes remain here that had the tuning "key".
I see the sockets for more and the small wood pipes/whistles are scattered around the parish.

Jean-David Beyer

Most tracker action organs did not have a valve for every pipe; they had a valve for every note on each organ. But the stops were selected by operating sliders in slider wind chests. I do not imagine electro-pneumatic action (such as used by Robert Hope-Jones) was any different in this respect. Although anything is possible.

Tuba is easy enough to pick up after a fashion, but is a bear to play beautifully.

If you think that is hard, consider playing the toy piano beautifully. A friend of mine does this (she also plays the adult piano). I believe she is the first person to play one in Carnegie Hall.

Here, she plays two toy pianos at once: one with each hand.
Can your kid play that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmKrV50a01s

Here is a more familiar work, played on just one toy piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMXVlJoHUSw

Jamie Hall

Quite true, @Jean-David Beyer , about the tracker mechanism -- one part of the mechanism opens a channel under a particular set of pipes, and another part opens essentially a crossing channel, with the end result being that under certain pipes, when a particular stop is pulled and a particular note pressed, both channels are open under a particular pipe and the air can flow to the pipe. Simple enough in principle. Can be a bear in practice. In modern trackers -- pioneered by Fisk and Casavant Freres -- the whole mechanism is carbon fibre of amazing sophistication. Needless to say the craftsmanship to prevent air leaks is also amazing.

Electric and electro-pneumatic organs are quire different. In many electrics -- particularly as exemplified by the Aeolian-Skinner instruments -- each pipe has its own little electric valve, and relays (of startling size are used to convert key presses and stop selection into valve action. Smaller organs are often "unified" (with varying results...) which simply means that a given rank of pipes -- lets say diapasons -- can be made to do multiple duty at different pitches. Sometimes that works well. Sometimes not...

Then there is the little matter of air pressure, which can vary from only a few inches for some ranks to as many as 40 inches (the Tuba Mirabilis flying trumpets on the main organ at the Washington National Cathedral, where I used to play, for instance) -- controlling and maintaining the correct pressure in conditions from where only a few -- or even just one -- pipe is sounding to when the full organ is in use isn't easy.

To get back a little more to HeatingHelp… it's not hard to see why an instrument with anything from a thousand to several tens of thousands of pipes, of different materials (wood, metal...) with umpteen different moving parts is a little finicky about the environment it lives in. Things stick. Things go out of tune. Things leak air. Pipes sound when the shouldn't -- or don't when they should.

If you are blessed with a pipe organ, be kind to it.