near-boiler piping

George76

Anybody have an idea what it costs to fix this? I need new near-boiler piping----new black iron pipe to replace the copper.

George76

Fred

Wow, that's a mess. It all needs to be cut out and redone. We don't discuss pricing here. Where are you located? We may be able to recommend someone who can dismantle it and pipe it correctly. How old is the boiler? It may make more sense to remove it all and start over, including a new boiler.

EBEBRATT-Ed

It sure needs to be done. No $$$$talked here.

Check "find a contractor" on this site someone may be nearby

George76

We're not sure how many years old, maybe 10 years. It's a 7 section Crown Boiler Jamiaca Series.

The 2 parallel mains are properly pitched and insulated along with run-out. The Hartford loop is done completely wrong. The returns meet above the water line, which is not correctly done.

I replaced the main vents with Gorton 2s on larger main and a couple Gorton 1s on smaller main.

I measured and counted all radiator sections in the building and came up with 120% oversized boiler.

The 1st floor took out all their radiators and put in a heat pump with their SpacePac system, so boiler has been oversized even more this year, probably 150% needed size.

I'm in Chicago; it's a pre Victorian 3-flat.

The two other owners also have SpacePac but only AC. 1st floor wants to eliminate steam completely and is suggesting installing heat pumps. Given Chicago winters, I don't think its possible to get round-the-year heat with ductless system.

Any ideas, suggestions...?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Yes. There are a few steam experts in Chicago. Check "find a contractor" on this site

unclejohn

Two sticks of dynamite.

nicholas bonham-carter

In a condominium regime, there are common elements owned jointly by everyone, in a proportion to the percentage of square area, or value of the individual units to the total. The roof would be one such element, as would be a hallway, and the exterior walls, and structure of the building. The electric service, entrance is also jointly owned, and is there enough service capacity for 2 more heat pumps, which need more energy than a/c?
The second floor owners should never have been allowed to remove their radiators, because it has affected the whole common heating system. Any problems with the steam system should have been corrected instead on every owner’s dime.
How well does the system heat, with that improper piping? Does it use water? Presumably not well, which prompted the changeover of the ground floor unit to a heat pump. They will be able to tell everyone how effective their changeover has been. If the steam system were eliminated entirely, it is possible that their system will be undersized, as it has been using the waste heat from the present piping. If properly installed, a steam system would still be much less expensive in energy cost than an electric heat pump., and the installation cost of the heat pump addition for the ground floor would exceed the cost of their share of the steam repiping.
I would look into redoing the piping in such a way that when the grim reaper comes for the present boiler, it can be more of a cut and slide replacement, using a more appropriately sized boiler. A drop header would work well here.—NBC

George76

Thanks for your answer. Sorry about the ambiguity--1st floor removed all rads due to apartment overheating, but after removal were still getting plenty of heat in their main space. 1st and 2nd floors experience temps up to 76-78(2nd floor also has half of rads removed). 1st floor actually bought the heat pump for 2 separate, unheated additions/finished basement areas.. heat pump is two-stage w electric coils. Basement, apartment, and addition are all zoned separately. I think coils just work on 2 zones-- basement and addition.

As for their overheating, they must be getting heat off the indirect heat coming off insulated mains right below them or the uninsulated, exposed 10' risers(about 10EDR in each room, possibly more since pipes get very hot).

I don't think any water loss. It has an automatic feeder so it's possible. Water level on sight glass is ok though--rebounds after returns feed condensate back.

Steam seemed dry with the sight glass blow-out check--just steam, no water.

A fair bit of water hammer after setting stat to 1 CPH. Pressuretrol cutoff at 1.5. Cycles a couple times on pressure. No hammer before, but was set at 6 CPH and Hoffman vents were always clicking on and off.

Shorter main seems to vent a lot faster. and huge living room rads connected to it heat up fast and hot---one that is poorly pitched sloshes quite a bit. Main vents spit a bit of water. Reason I mention this is because for the anticipated repipe, trying to determine whether to separate mains so they both begin off the header or leave as currently piped(see 2nd photo above, top left quadrant of photo to see where they branch off).

I agree with setting up the piping for a possible sooner-than-later boiler replacement. What is causing the suspected early failure of boiler? Copper corrosion getting into cast sections? Anything else?

Couple more questions:

NBC-- their heat pump can use waste heat from steam system? I thought the heat pump only extracted heat from outdoors and brought inside.. could it be redistributing to basement and addition?

Thanks.

SeanBeans

Depends who you hire heheheh

JUGHNE

I believe NBC refers to the "waste heat" from uninsulated piping and the boiler itself being in the basement will provide heat for the first floor to a degree.

nicholas bonham-carter

That is correct. The waste heat from the boiler and piping in the basement is providing passive heating to the ground floor, which if removed may affect the heat pump performance at the lowest design temperatures.
If repiped, and properly insulated, the system may also provide less heat upstairs.—NBC

George76

Thanks for your comments thus far. I had three more questions if anybody feels like tackling them---

1. Have old chimneys(this one is about 150 yrs old) been known to collapse due to excessive mortar corrosion from being used as an exhaust flue for its entire known existence? The acid in the flue gas can wear away at mortar, causing chimney failure.

HVAC guy recommends re-routing of flue to exterior of building with proper 5" Stainless Steel venting bracketed to exterior side of building and retiring old chimney. Our flue gas safety sensor has shut off system off due to flue blockage by crumbling mortar in the past, and has been a building priority, but just want to check the feasibility of entire chimney collapsing due to this phenomenon. Maybe some have seen it happen in the field and can share their experience with it.

Not sure why original estimates for building (before we purchased) involved a chimney liner---current contractor says inner walls have too many bricks jutting in to allow for that...


2. In the meantime before this work is performed, do they make a CO safety device that can be installed in series with other safeties that can automatically turn system off?

3. For regular gas combustion, does the window-less boiler room need an in-room louvered air vent, or can it get by on indirect ventilation via a basement door vent about 50 ft from boiler room?

EBEBRATT-Ed

As long as the basement is large enough to supply the required make-up air through normal infiltration your fine (average basement). If you suspect lack of MU air additional air can be brought in through a louver wired to the boiler and interlocked with a damper or a "fan in a can"

If the boiler is in a small closed off room or closet etc. then additional MU air may be needed.

A stack up the side of the building is fine if you don't mind the looks.

I would have a competent chimney guy look at it and see if you can use the old chimney as a chase for a stack or a liner.

Get a good carbon monoxide detector. Get the the type that can interconnect with other detectors. You power the detector with 120 volt (usually balck and white) The orange or red wire coming off the detector gets powered when you go into alarm . Use the red and white (neutral wire) to power a relay with a 120 volt coil a (RIB RIBU1C would work) wire the boiler safety circuit through the NC contacts on the Rib relay (blue and yellow wires if I recall.

simple job

HotanCool

I'm certainly NOT a steam expert. But...that's a mess!

George76

EBEBratt-Ed-----Can I use the RIB RIBU1C on a 24v safety circuit?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@George76

Yes. The coil voltage on that relay can be 120volt AC which you need or 10-30 volts AC or DC.

The relay contacts are single pole double throw so you have 1 common wire and 1 NC contact and 1 N0 contact and can switch any voltage up to 600 volt I beleive