Oil contamination causing ignition problems

SuperTech

I had an interesting call yesterday that has me wondering about ideas for an inexpensive solution. Customer has a nice Thermopride OL-85. I've been working on it for a couple of years and I have recommended replacement of the oil tank due to age and condition but the owner can't afford it. Every year his oil filter, pump strainers and burner nozzles are always nasty, showing signs of water in the tank and bacterial sludge growth. I add additives during the annual maintenance and recommend it with each fill up, not sure if he's actually been doing that. Usually he can make it through the year without a problem but this year has been different. His Bock direct fired water heater has been ok but the furnace has been a problem.

A little background information. I installed a R7284U primary control, 51771 electronic igniter, new electrodes and converted it to interrupted ignition about two years ago. Nozzle has always been a .60 80A, pump pressure 100 PSI. Single 101/265-1A oil filter at the tank. 1/2" oil line. Oil pump cut off failed testing this year, upgraded to a clean cut pump at 100 PSI this fall. Combustion analysis at the time was 470 stack, 5.5% O2, zero PPM CO, 11.50% CO2 with zero smoke. Draft was set to -.040" in the breech.

Problems began a few weeks ago. Burner locked out due to lack of ignition. Found sludge on the nozzle, filter and strainer. Replaced them after blowing out the oil line and adding oil treatment. Fired right up and the homeowner noted no problems until Friday morning when it locked out again. A check of the R7284U confirmed no lockouts or recycling since I was last there.

I checked the nozzle and filter, both ok. The strainer had sludge but wasn't restricting oil flow yet. After discussing the possibility of tank replacement again the homeowner decided to go with a previous recommendation of a Garber spin on filter and vacuum gauge in an effort to protect the nozzle and strainer. Installed the filter at the furnace, leaving the existing filter at the tank. The burner still wouldn't fire. Installed a new nozzle and the burner fired up on the first try but wouldn't again afterwards. Checked electrodes, igniter, Z dimension settings, still no ignition. Opened the furnace so I could see the combustion chamber. With a mirror I could see a really good spark and the mist of oil spraying out of the nozzle. No ignition. Called Beckett out of frustration.

What they advised was to shut the air down (I had tried adjusting air to get ignition) and raise the pump pressure to 130 PSI. Sure enough the finer spray lit up but unfortunately the chamber was flooded and smoked like crazy. After letting it run I was able to get zero smoke and under 50 PPM CO. But I've raised the output of the burner and it still won't light at 100 PSI.

This is the first time I have encountered lack of ignition at manufacturer recommended pump pressure. Obviously the oil is contaminated and he needs to address the tank but he says he can't afford it. Any ideas for solutions? I've seen Garber filters that are designed for water seperation but I'm not sure how well they work or if it will help. I actually didn't notice any water in the filter last time, but I have in the past.

rwhtg

If you are leaning towards a fuel quality (too much sludge) that is causing these constant problems you could turn the general at the tank into a "sludge pot" and put a garber after it to try and help. ultimately its a band aid till the cust can replace that tank. is the oil line over head or along the floor? im assuming due to age of tank is along the floor or in the floor. we have a tank in our shop that we dump all of our slop oil buckets into from the trucks, any type of fuel oil we have, there is an 10" & 8" ful flo in line to the burner and it still runs with less than 3-4"hg. on a 3/8 line

SuperTech

I'm leaning towards fuel quality because I think I ruled out everything else. The Bock water heater shares the same fuel but doesn't have the lockout issues, one of the differences is a newer burner and higher pump pressure on the Bock.

I did add the Garber at the burner, but I left the filter in at the tank. Does it make a difference in sludge collection if I keep a filter in the canister at the tank? I've tried it both ways at home, but I don't have a sludge problem. The line is along the floor.

I'm concerned about having to raise the pump pressure like Beckett advised me to. I don't like how I was getting CO around 40 PPM when I had zero previously. This could be attributed to excessive oil in the chamber from multiple resets but I would think that it all was burned out after I got it going. Readings were over 1500 when I started adjustments. I would have liked more time there but I was there too long anyway and calls were piling up on me.

Intplm.

I didn't read if it is an under or above ground tank.
have you considered having a tanker truck do a pump out? Let the oil level get low, pump out and fill the tank.
or Maybe add some filtering beyond the standard filters used.

I know this is reaching, as the sides of the tank can add to the debris in the tank. But the majority of the sludge is surely on the bottom. Thats why Im thinking maybe do a pump out.

Jamie Hall

How long has the oil in the tank been there? And is it straight #2 or is it a biofuel blend? Both make a difference. Aged oil -- regardless of water content -- has a higher flash point than new oil. What has me thinking is that the finer droplet size from the higher pressure may have reduced the required ignition energy to a level where it will fire, but with a coarser drop size there simply isn't enough energy in the spark to get it to fire (ignition energy is very closely related to drop size). Filtering won't help that -- won't hurt, either, and will help with the nozzle clogging.

I'm a little surprised that you couldn't get the analyzer readings better at the higher pressure, since that's as much a factor of fuel to air ratio as anything else -- but maybe the combustion chamber was still gooped up.

SuperTech

@Intplm. It's an above ground tank inside the basement, about 25 feet away from the furnace. It's not my tank, it's a customers. I recommended that he contact a company that does oil tank cleaning if he didn't have the money to replace the tank. He doesn't want to spend a lot of money on it. He's trying to keep it going until he can convert to natural gas since it's available where he lives. I added a 10 micron Garber filter, I'll have to see if it helps.

@Jamie Hall The oil isn't that old, definitely delivered this season, still 5/8 full. I'm not sure if is a biofuel blend but it probably is. It's definitely the finer spray that got it lit. I'm hoping that the CO will clear up, the levels were decreasing. I'm just concerned that the higher pressure has changed the size of the flame, possibly causing an impingement.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have 2 ideas other than replacing the tank.
Also, when will the cost of service exceed the tank replacement cost? Not your fault.

Run the oil line into the top of the tank and keep it up off the bottom. Sludge and water are at the bottom. Will have to fill the tank more often. deliveries may stir up sludge

Put a temp pump and filter on the tank. Pump out the bottom and back into the top through some filters with a large enough pump to stir things up and clean the tank......probably a waste of money you could be installing a new tank.

Most burners especially older clunkers respond well to higher pump pressures but I have never seen one refuse to light at 100psi that's just weird

DZoro

I have a customer with the same furnace and issues. Been using 4in1 hot treatment on every fill. If he forgets to put it in before they fill, then I get a call. Drain 5- 10 gallons out, and filter/nozzle changes usually do the trick. Until the tanks are cleaned or flushed we will continue to fight the bacteria.
D

SuperTech

I like the idea of changing it so it draws from the top of the tank, it makes perfect sense. I usually consider coming out of the bottom better but not if sludge is the problem. The idea of pumping and filtering the oil would help the sludge, but this burner refused to fire with everything clean.

I know there's water in the tank but I've seen the same Thermopride function with a much worse water problem and still fire at 100 PSI. Weird is right. As soon as I got the pressure to about 120 it fired up.

STEVEusaPA

They also make a floating suction line which keeps the line a few inches below the level.
Water is probably still getting thru the nozzle and is responsible for the poorer combustion, higher CO, although 40ppm isn't the worse.
It's odd that it's only affecting one appliance and not both. Does the oil-fired water heater show any signs of sludge in its pump strainer?
Being that is should have a .75 nozzle, .60 @140psi shouldn't be a problem.

The real problem is you know the right thing to do, yet you're bumping up against a cheapskate who will probably never convert to gas, wasting your time with better things to do out there.

He could also call a generator company with an fuel polisher and clean the tank. But in all reality, if the tank has that much crap in it, it's heading toward failure and should be replaced.

I'd drop off a 30 gallon drum, hook the furnace up to it, clean oil. If it doesn't shut off, it's obviously the oil.

I'd also tell him this is all I can do without you spending the money to make it right. Shake his hand and tell him you hope to come back to properly fix everything. If not, thanks for being a customer and good luck to you.

--Boring side note--
I had two burners that gave me unusual problems this week, with a call back on each one, very odd. Maybe it's something cosmic...solar flares, change of seasons...etc.

SuperTech

The water heater gets all the same crap in the strainer and nozzle, but I haven't had any issues with it, but then again I never had issues with the furnace up until now.

A floating suction line? I'm going to have to look into that since I have never heard of it. Is it easy to install?

He's aware that the problem is the oil and the tank, I've recommended tank cleaning and replacement but he's either too cheap or genuinely can't afford it. I want to make sure that I've done everything I can possibly do to help before I tell him I can't do anything more for him.

STEVEusaPA

I would only use it as a last resort because cleaning/replacing tank and good fuel are better:
http://orders.sidharvey.com/IMAGES/specs/578.pdf

SuperTech

That looks like a good product. I'm definitely going to discuss moving the oil line to the top of the tank if the problem continues.
What about a nozzle line heater? Would that help ignition? I have only seen them on waste oil burners where they won't ignite unless the oil is pre heated.

STEVEusaPA

Sure it would help in general for better combustion.
But why keep throwing money at it? If the floating suction doesn't work the nozzle line heater won't help.
Seems like it's poor fuel quality/dirty tank.
Is he getting his heating oil fresh from the refinery? Or is he getting it from a company that stores fuel and/or pumps out a tank for gas conversion, then resells the fuel?
Stored fuel, especially bio products, can definitely be the source of contamination.
I'd do floating suction line, keep treating the fuel. I'd even dump a bottle in and mix it with a small pump if you're installing the floating suction line. Then sell him a bottle or 3 to dump into the tank as he's getting his next three fill-ups. Or 1/2 bottle if he's only buying 100 gallons.
I'd also ask him (probably won't do it), to turn off the equipment during, and for a 1/2 hour after delivery.

"Ya gotta get that poison out"...lol

SuperTech

I've added fuel treatment every time I am there. I told him to buy a few bottles of H.O.T fuel treatment for when he gets the tank filled. I don't know if he actually has done it. I also told him about shutting it down during filling but again, who knows if he does. It's odd that I didn't actually see the water in the filter canister yesterday like I have in the past. It appears normal. I'm sure he probably buys from whoever charges the least.

@STEVEusaPA have you ever had a burner not fire up until the pressure was raised like this one?

STEVEusaPA

Can't say that I have. Only if it originally called for say 150psi, and I installed a new pump @ 100psi-until I immediately set the pressure to 150.
I wonder if better atomization is affecting the water droplets and letting it fire up.
Some more thoughts.
-What's the ohms reading while running, is it drifting towards lockout territory?
-If you look down the air tube with a strong light, what does the back of the chamber look like? I recall one burner with water issues where the back of the chamber had black 'tar' stuck to it. Was causing the CO to rise to over a 1000ppm on shut down. Had to pull the burner and carefully remove it, then it was marginally better.
-Is the air tube, end cone ok? I'm pretty sure that air tube combo requires either ceramic disc, and/or amulet around the end of the air tube. Not that I think this is the problem, but it may contribute to poorer combustion.
-With the pressure raised, how does the fire look? Any impingment?

If it's the older furnace, I hate the way you have to remove that nut, and the big disc/plate to check overfire. Risking a 'kiss from the dragon'.

Seems like you're locked in and determined to fix it...both good and bad, right?

SuperTech

I'm definitely locked in on this one, I want to be prepared if I have to go back.

Ohms reading on the cad cell was low, around 200-250.
I didn't see anything when I looked down the tube. The end cone looked good. I cleaned it, no cracks or anything.
The chamber looked good, just had a light coating of soot from burning the oil in the chamber.
I didn't notice anything unusual about the flame but I'm not in the habit of looking at the flame. I rely on my Testo and smoke pump. Would you notice anything from looking at it that the tools wouldn't explain?

At least now I have a game plan in place if the problem persists. As usual this site never fails to help me out.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The only contaminated tank I had was dirt.....or something in the tank. The burner ran a small nozzle like a .5 or .6. Had different filters on it and you couldn't keep the nozzle from plugging ...constant calls. Every thing looked clean as a whistle but on a NH call no oil spraying in the chamber. Replace the nozzle and it ran every time.

Spring time came. Don't know the final fix


Coming out of the top of the tank or floating as @STEVEusaPA said will probably fix it.....for now.

Cheer up! Spring is almost here.

Maybe he can find some $$$$$ over the summer to fix it right

SuperTech

@EBEBRATT-Ed thanks for the advice. I'm looking forward to spring, summer not so much. I like heating season much more than cooling. At least I can be sure to be able to get to the equipment in heating season. Some of these air handlers I have to get to will really ruin your day.😩

DZoro

The only thing I did change the last time I was at my problem child (last week) was that I added some O2. But, don't think it will help, you just cant burn that bacteria/water...
I get a kick out of the hand drawn wiring schematic that the T-prides have back in the day,
D

Leonard

Floating withdrawal sounds like a good idea, but if he doesn't shut off burner for few hours after fill it might still suck up sludge that's been stirred up, no experience with float type. I have standard bottom withdrawal , stirred up sludge did plug my filter/nossle.

Other idea is a ~ 5 gal tank on output of main tank to give sludge/water a place to settle out in instead of the filter, (withdraw from top). Check code about anchoring it down ( think floods ).

If it's not leaking and he's handy have him vac tank himself. I let my 50 year old tank run out in summer and used a old regular shop vac to vacuum out sludge/water from it. Used car small "high beam" ( 50 watt) lightbulb on a coat hanger in tank for light. Put Vac outside and ran hose thru nearby window (oil stinks). Got ~ 8 gal of liquid out, let it settle a week and recovered ~ 3.5 gal of clear clean oil, put back in tank. Remaining ~ 4.5 gal was black sludge/water (50 years of condensate). Threw vac and hose away afterwards.

STEVEusaPA

SuperTech said:

...
I didn't notice anything unusual about the flame but I'm not in the habit of looking at the flame. I rely on my Testo and smoke pump. Would you notice anything from looking at it that the tools wouldn't explain?...

I only look at the flame to see if I have flame impingement, or during diagnostics to see if I'm getting spray/no flame, or no spray. Or to check if it's not cutting off (besides using a gauge).
Most newer stuff you can't see in there anyway.
Other than that I don't really have a reason, and just tune by instruments.

SuperTech

I was definitely glad it was a Thermopride that I was working on. I was able to open up the front and have decent access to the chamber to see what's going on. Could clearly see the spark. Can't do that on many furnaces (boilers are easily accessible 😉).
They make a fantastic simple, reliable product. I'll be installing one for my dad this spring.

That must have been a nasty job cleaning the tank. What did you do with the sludge and water? Did it go to a disposal facility or did someone burn it with a waste oil burner?

Leonard

Wasn't much of a mess, pretty clean actually. I hated oil stink so I planned everything out first. Paper towels and bags to put it in. Acetone to clean my hands as I worked. Couple old (expendable) vac hose without leaks, duct taped the joints. I forget, used either aluminum conduit or section of old steel TV mast to vac/scrap crud off tank bottom., maybe was aluminum conduit.

Biggest problem was I got cheap and used a junky shop vac, since I was going to junk it afterwards. 1-st one wasn't powerful enough to suck oil up ~ 6 ft to the outside (was a cheapie 1.5-2 "hp"). So had to use a normal consumer shop vac, it worked fine.

Let the ~8.5 gallons settle in two 5 gal pails for a week, recovered 3.5 gal of clean clear oil off the top, put that back in the tank to burn.

Remaining ~ 5 gal was: ~ 1gal mix of black oil/water on top, ~ 4 gal black water at bottom. Original plan was to spread it out little at a time in hot summer sun on LARGE cardboard to dry, then burn everything. But then got busy and practicality stepped in........

Easy to get free LARGE pieces of cardboard from furniture/mattress store or Honda motor cycle and ATV dealer. Cardboard saws up real FAST and EASY with carpenter's hand saw.

Some cities accept waste motor oil .

Intplm.

The idea of the 10 micron filter, Excellent !
As to the pump out. Many oil companies will do a pump out, ( at least some that I have dealt with.) Tell the company the reason for the pump out. Ask them to vacuum the sludge from the bottom of the tank. Then have a new delivery with another service call to get any of the residual sludge out. That will require many filter changes on sight until the burner works properly (been there done that). Oil treatment should also be considered.
Glad it is a above ground tank. If it wasn't we would be considering a failed buried tank.

nibs

If you add 1% methyl Hydrate to the oil tank, it will help to take any water into solution so that it will not stop ignition.
Not a cure, but a really effective band aid.

doughess

Oil tanks often have a few gallons of sludge at bottom that cause problems. Sludge can easily removed using small siphon hose with opening positioned at bottom of tank.

Use small electric pump with clear plastic hose discharged into 5 gallon plastic water jug so water/sludge level could be seen. Stopped pumping when discharge was only fuel.

From 25 year old 560 gallon tank had only 20 gallons of sludge and water.

Now before oil fill, add proportioned amount of fuel oil sludge treatment.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/32-oz-Fu...5310/100145488

Leonard

The oil pump should remove the water and muck to solve your main problem. But after I completely emptied my 60 year old tank I found a sludge adhering to bottom. Had to scrap it off. It had a grit like consistency but was not abrasive like sand or rust.

I removed it figuring new oil might loosen it and eventually plug filter.

I used end of a metal conduit to scrap it off , shop vac connected to it to suck it out.

SuperTech

The problem wasn't the sludge, I thought it was after the initial plugged nozzle, but when I had the ignition problems all the burner components were clean and new.

The damn oil just wouldn't ignite until I bumped up the pump pressure past 115 PSI.

I was offering solutions to the customer for the sludge but he has some sort of contamination that caused clean looking oil to not ignite at 100 PSI. I'm not sure if the cause is bacterial growth or water.

Leonard

I assumed sludge plugged up nossle.

Wonder if the spray coming out had lot of water. Maybe disconnect nossel and let it pump out 1 gal into a glass container. Let it sit a few days or week and see if it separates

I've had a car that was leaking antifreeze into the oil . During oil change I saved a jar of it. It didn't separate even in a few weeks , forgot about it for ~ 1/2 year, looked at jar had 50% clear water.

I assume oil line is tee'd to the 2 burners. Depending on setup, maybe heavier water/oil is preferentially going DOWN the 1-st tap of tee, or if vertical out the lowest tap . Just an idea.

doughess

Fuel oil sludge and contaminants should be expected. A lot of time is wasted diagnosing problems that could be avoided with good filters. While regular/annual replacement of filter is a nice idea, contaminants are a random thing.

With today's smaller nozzles, double filters are recommended under .75 gph. When changing replaceable filter elements can see debris they stopped. My coarse fiber filters gets all the gooey sludge. Never have to change metal screen filter on pump.

A vacuum gage on fuel line from filters to burner pump is a good way to monitor oil filter status. When the gage reads over 12 psi replace coarse filter. Then run burner. If vacuum gage is still above 5 psi replace fine micron filter.

Leonard

Checking if water in oil ...., in lab they might centrifuge the sample speed up separation.

At home can put sample in a plastic pill container and if car rim has a flat edge you can stand it on , duct tape it in place. (I trial and error balance tires on fancy aluminum rims this way) . Jack up one tire and slowly spin car up to ~ 40 mph. If car axle doesn't have posi-traction, tire in air will do ~ 80mph. Gradually slow it down or braking force could rip it out of duct tape. Watch yourself if it falls off.

I'll let you do the math, but it makes VERY high G's, 50-100 G's IIRC. (Tried this to unplug an HP ink cartridge, Kapton blew out.)

STEVEusaPA

doughess said:

...
A vacuum gage on fuel line from filters to burner pump is a good way to monitor oil filter status. When the gage reads over 12 psi replace coarse filter. Then run burner. If vacuum gage is still above 5 psi replace fine micron filter.

I think you mean inches of vacuum and not psi.
But are you really letting a fuel pump get up to 12” of vacuum before changing the filter?
They should be changed sooner.

EBEBRATT-Ed

High vacuum will cause issues even if the oil is perfect

doughess

Some filter element packages call for replacement at 15", others at 17".

When nozzle pressure is 150 PSI and vacuum at 12", oil flow is OK. If nozzle pressure had dropped at 12" it would indicate to replace filter.

Have pressure gauges on burners to monitor status and facilitate diagnostics.

Jersey2

I think the oil man is delivering sludge to him.

SuperTech

> @Jersey2 said:
> I think the oil man is delivering sludge to him.

Lol, the oil this customer has is of questionable quality but I doubt he's delivering sludge. The tank is just really old and has some water in it causing a bacterial contamination which may or may not be the cause of the ignition trouble with the clean nozzle and filters.

I put the Garber filter with a vacuum gauge at his burner and left the general filter at the tank so he's got double filters and a gauge. So far so good, haven't had to go back there.

Jellis

Leonard said:

Checking if water in oil ...., in lab they might centrifuge the sample speed up separation.

At home can put sample in a plastic pill container and if car rim has a flat edge you can stand it on , duct tape it in place. (I trial and error balance tires on fancy aluminum rims this way) . Jack up one tire and slowly spin car up to ~ 40 mph. If car axle doesn't have posi-traction, tire in air will do ~ 80mph. Gradually slow it down or braking force could rip it out of duct tape. Watch yourself if it falls off.

I'll let you do the math, but it makes VERY high G's, 50-100 G's IIRC. (Tried this to unplug an HP ink cartridge, Kapton blew out.)

You forgot to mention to have someone "hold your beer" before you jack up the car.

STEVEusaPA

doughess said:

Some filter element packages call for replacement at 15", others at 17".

When nozzle pressure is 150 PSI and vacuum at 12", oil flow is OK. If nozzle pressure had dropped at 12" it would indicate to replace filter.

Have pressure gauges on burners to monitor status and facilitate diagnostics.

What are you babbling about? How does nozzle pressure affect vacuum (it doesn't)?
The amount of vacuum a fuel pump can pull is based solely on it's total gear suction capacity TGSC.
NO manufacturer recommends running a single oil line to their fuel unit, gravity or lift and have it pull over 10" of vacuum.
I'm afraid your information is not correct.

Leonard

Car Centrifuge..... what I meant was don't be near the spinning tire. If container falls off it's going ~ 80 MPH and can hurt you. I always add large blocks of wood under frame and let car rest on them for safty, so car can't fall. I've mounted and balanced hundreds of tires.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@STEVEusaPA

There's a guy on u tube I watch his videos and laugh.

He goes on a call with a dirty nozzle strainer and a plugged boiler.

he cleans the boiler and never reseals the smoke hood. Bleeds the pump and say's he is getting "good oil flow" changes the nozzle and announces because of the "good oil flow" he doesn't need to check the filter or pump strainer.

and no combustion test so much misiformation