Mitsubishi Kumo Station

GW

Anyone installed a Kumo Station yet? We are jumping into the fire tomorrow. I’m just an average joe with IT.

The Kumo cloud is curious; out of the 4 or 5 jobs we’ve installed with Cloud, half the customers struggled and the other half breezed it. All were good with WiFi.

Massachusetts has some crazy big rebates for tying the ductless to fossil fuel (oil or propane) zones via the Kumo Station

The world is changing

wpmike

I installed Kumo Cloud on my H2i heat pumps at home. I think the hardest part is taking apart the head and connecting the kumo cloud device. Just follow the direction carefully using your phone to configure the device. They have a transfer ownership feature so you can pass it to your customer.

One of the reason I installed it, Mitsubishi offer a Wireless Temperature sensor, the default sensor in the head is useless it really doesn't provide a temperature of the room. Here is a link to the device if curious.

http://meus1.mylinkdrive.com/item/PAC-USWHS003-TH-1.html

TAG

I have two 3 head Hyper heat systems (two different properties) -- they use a Honeywell interface. Has Mitsubishi moved to an all new system?

Mine uses that common wireless wall thermostat that Mitsubishi uses -- all the heads get an interface (plugs into units) and there is a router (or something ) that plugs into the internet. Honeywell online portal.

GW

Yes this is different, it interfaces with the boiler or furnace. New stuff and big rebates

GW

Well that was an experience. The directions that come in the box are useless, and, one is supposed to go to mylinkdrive to get the “real” directions. It was just a 70 minute on hold to wait for the right tech guy to take my call

TAG

Can you explain what it does that's so special?

GW

yes, very large rebates in Mass this year is we are 'displacing' oil or propane heating with the 'integrated' control system. $1600 per 12,000 BTU of 'col climate' heat pump installed ($1000 per 12,000 BTU if it's central heat pump)

GW

another Kumo Station install

TAG

I get the rebates for the switch from fossil ... but, what is this control doing that's so special above what the unit would do w/o.

GW

Yes this control automatically switches to fossil is cold weather. It’s acting as a dual fuel switch

GW

one more- the rebates are big

dr_c

@GW - When you install the Kumo Station with remote temperature sensors, do they replace the wall thermostats for the backup fossil boiler with the contacts in the Kumo Station calling for heat when needed based on the temperature set with the app?

GW

May I presume you’re a Massachusetts person? Mass is the only state with the crazy high rebates. We are taking about Kumo Clouds right? I guess you could say “remote sensor”.

When set up with Kumo Station, you don’t need traditional thermostats anymore. I feel like that’s too far of a leap and we leave the existing thermostats in place, wired in series with the Kumo Station.

So, yes, temps are set in the app, and old stats are turned down. Or, pull the stats

It’s apparent some people in society won’t like this technology; an app-based system and possible “non exact” switchover points”. I have to do a little pre-screening with our potential Kumo customers. When I ask “are you comfortable with general WiFi networking and phone-based apps”, and get a no or a long pause, I won’t install this stuff. The older the person the more I ask (so sorry older folks)

As I type, it seems inevitable that HVAC will steer towards smart technology. Now it’s an option. Old school heating/cooling dudes will get pushed to the back on the line. Utilities are beginning to push the issue.

dr_c

Great. Thanks for confirming that. It read like that was the case in the manuals but was not certain. Up in Maine here - wish we had the rebates. Just using wanting to use Kumo station and Kumo cloud to simplify controls in an application with 4 Mitsubshi zones / 4 boiler zones. 8 thermostats not going over well in this installation.

Looks like Mitsubshi should come up with a wall mounted “Kumo Thermostat” where you could set the temperature outside the app to help with cross generational acceptance.

Thanks a bunch.

mikeg2015

What I haven’t seen much yet are “smart” system that leverage heat pumps based on predicted building load and outdoor conditions. For example overheating or overcooling when outdoor temps are more optimal, then coasting at other periods or on a minisplit, intentionally limiting output. Also linking with the smart grid in the same manner for tiem of use savings.

Only works with a higher mass building.

GW

Mike, it seems like Massachusetts has an abundance of electricity (lots of PV solar) and the utilities are trying to encourage people to burn more watts.

PatrickM

@GW Hi - thanks for the comments you've posted here. They're helpful. I am a homeowner with Mitsubishi heat pumps (7 indoor, 3 outdoor units) and am using Kumo Cloud with good success so far. Kumo Station is installed but not yet activated. I have 4 zones for my furnace. I've been reading the available material re the Station (installation, operation, etc.) and one thing is not clear to me, which is - how do I allow for control of each furnace zone via the indoor units? It seems that I would need to wire each furnace thermostat to one of the 4 Station channels, that is, one-for-one. Is that how it works?

(And then, of course, I'll associate an indoor unit (4 different) to each of those Station channels.)

Thank you,

Patrick

GW

Patrick, this is semi technical, the station has 4 'switches'. the kumos/station would basically handle the 'switching' between the heat pump(s) and the furnace zone(s). In this case, you would turn down (or remove) the old stats you have now (I never remove the old stats). So, there is a parallel wiring thing going on. The wiring is basic but the initiation is a pain. This is not easy to set up, the first time i did this i had to talk to Mitsubishi on the phone at some length. I can't type a huge thing on how to do this. Does your Mitsubishi people know what to do?

PatrickM

@GW Thanks for your response. And, yes, I get the whole concept about the station handling the switch over between the heat pumps and the boiler. Also, I know that once the station is connected, the heat demand will be solely from the heat pumps, not from the boiler stats.

My question has to do with the wiring on the station to make this work. That is, since I have four boiler zones, will I have 4 wires each of which is connected to one of the station channels (aka switches)? That is, with four boiler thermostat controls I'll have all of the 4 station switches wired up to accommodate the 4 boiler thermostat controls?

Or, do all the boiler zone wires get wired into only one station switch? I've tried looking at everything I can find online and this particular question is not directly answered, as far as I can see. (and that could be that documents I'm looking at are targeted towards the pros (you) and not the layperson.

I'm asking because the group that installed my system is not very experienced in the new(ish) Mitsu station, and they are also trying to get the information as well.

Thank you.

Patrick

GW

Patrick, yes, in that case I would run an eight wire thermostat over to the Kumo from the zone control. as you know, each zone has its own two wires.

GW

Himmm I guess I hit send, I wasn’t done yet

I never touch the original thermostat wiring. That stays as is. I recommend simply turning down the original thermostats. They kind of act as a safety mechanism. I certainly am not going to remove the thermostats, and rely solely on the Kumo set up.

Setting it up is a bit of a pain. DIP switch five needs to be turned on, you need to power off the station then back on. Then you need to get the Kumo app to talk to the station. Then you need to set up the parameters on the Kumo app. it’s a bit of a dog and pony show to get it to work. But once it’s on, it’s good to go.

You’re in Massachusetts I take it? I’m not sure if other states have the crazy rebates we have in mass

Gary

PatrickM

@GW Thanks again. And, yes, I am in MA - the only way I could do this project is with the rebates!

Not touching the original thermostat wires is a great tip. That makes perfect sense, especially as the Kumo Station is new and I'd like to avoid a single point of failure if I can.

GW

Rebates are wild, looks like 2020 will be the same as 2019. Amazes me how much dough the MassSave program is shelling out

KUMOconfused

Gary,
I must say, I have learned more about the Kumo Station reading this thread than the previous 10 hours I spent searching the internet. I feel like there is an easy answer here, but why I can't find it online or through my HVAC company cis beyond me.

I have a brand new propane boiler with two zones. Each zone has its own thermostat. I also have a 4 zone heat pump system and a separate 1 zone heat pump system. We do not have the Kumo Station active at this point. It was wired to make the switch over, but I have not flipped the switches. We were told to leave our boiler thermostats around 4-6 degrees below what we set on the kumo cloud.

Let's assume I have all 5 zones set to 72 degrees and the switch over to propane should happen at 20 degrees outside. When it hits 90 degrees outside, does the kumo station/cloud tell my propane boiler to heat to 72 degrees? Wouldn't the boiler be working from what the temperature on the thermostats are set to? In this case, they would be set to 68 degrees. OR...does the kumo station keep the boiler going until it hits the 72 degrees at each mini split?

Not sure if it matters, but I use NEST thermostats. Happy to get rid of them if I have to. I haven't talked to one HVAC person that has told me to keep them!

GW

I’m afraid I don’t understand your example question. 90 degrees? Was that just a funny example? Your heating systems won’t be calling when it’s 90 right?

Basically above 20 the Mitsu works and below 20 the boiler works. The Kumo does the switching. The Nests are completely out of this conversation. Yes just turn them down, I’d go 4 degrees but whatever you want.

Aren’t your bathrooms gonna be chilly at a 20 degree switch over?

If your Mitsu guys can’t explain it- how are they going to active it? The first time was a complete pain for me. I’m a little more control oriented than the average install guy; it’s clear some hvac plumber guys will not jive with this system. There’s a little Irish jig to get the system to work.

I haven't been bitten by the nest bug yet, they don’t really offend me.

KUMOconfused

My apologies. I have no idea why I wrote 90 degrees. I did mean 20 degrees. It's not like the 9 and the 2 are even next to each other on the keyboard. Sorry!

The HVAC team has configured the Kumo Station to work at a 20-degree switchover, but I haven't actually turned the switches to automatic mode yet.

So, once the switchover happens, I still use the kumo cloud app to control the desired temperature in the house? As long as it's below 20 degrees outside, my propane boiler will work to satisfy the temperature set in the kumo app?

Also, what do you feel the "switchover" temp should actually be? I am in central MA.

I really appreciate your advice.

GW

Super- I imagined you mistyped but didn’t know

Correct- the Kumo does it all. Keep in mind your sensing points are the wall units which may not be ideal. The colder it gets the more swings you’ll feel in the home.

Every homeowner has their definition of what comfort means. I’ve become quite good at answering homeowners questions on “how many units does my home need”. There is no “one answer”

Fknippenberg

I live in a multi-family Condo building and the 3 units share a multi-zone boiler - would I be able to hook the Kumo station to just my two zones?

GW

Yes 

fall2802

Pulling this up again - I have a Kumo Station. Works quite well overall.
There is one major issue I came across once the system is on back-up heat only (heat pump off as configured because of outside temperature): The indoor temperature setpoint thresholds are very wide for the back-up system. You have to get more than 3 degrees under your setpoint before the station pulls heat from your back-up system. A bit too much temperature variation for my taste (especially since this is not how it works in heat pump mode). I cannot see an option to change that.
Anybody else with experience on that?

Kuminator1

I have a Kumo system up and running. It is working in conjunction with my oil burner. I would like to disconnect the connection between the Kumo system and my oil burner so I can run them independently from one another. Can anyone tell me how to disconnect the two?

GW

Piece of cake, simply turn the switches on the front of your Kumo Control to off. Use your normal thermostats as you wish.

AP40

Hi:
I have an unusual setup with a hyper heat multi zone that connects to an air handler(hydro air secondary) on one zone and indoor units on the others. The problem I run into is when I switch the air handler to fan only to use the oil burner, all the other indoor units stop heating and switch to fan only. Is this a known issue or is this an issue with my setup. Also same thing happens when I am trying to use the air handler and indoor splits I only get heat on the air handler side and fan only on the other zones.

Thank you for the info on here. It’s more helpful than any Mitsubishi manual I have seen.

GW

Hi AP I don’t have exact experience with what you inquire. Just general knowledge. Are you taking Kumo Control or just the Kumo Clioud app? I imagine the latter, and if so you might want to start a new topic; I’m sure you’ll get some feedback Seems like a set up glitch. 

If you’re taking Kumo Control I suspect there’s a misapplication, may want to check back with your install people 

SGG

Gary you seemed to have mastered the Kumo Station. Living in Mass also what do you use for settings when to shut off the system like 20 degrees?
What do you use for a delay?
What degrees do you totally disable the back up heater?
Thanks in advance

GW

Hello yes generally 40 and colder is fossil and 45and up is HP but that’s the basic settings that MassSave wants. At the moment oil is cheaper than HP so most people want to use oil when it’s colder. Delay- 20 minutes but sometimes I go to 5 just to keep the phone calls to a minimum. 

SGG

Thanks Gary for the setting info

Backroader83

Hello, I have a new Mitsubishi system with 5 indoor heads and Kumo Cloud system. My home also has a 4 zone oil boiler system, which I'd like to turn on at a specified temperature. I need my basement (zone 1) to heat exclusively with oil because I don't have a minisplit head down there and I don't want my pipes to freeze. Am there a way to do that? I played around the settings on the Kumo unit and the only way I could get the oil heat to turn on was to set the toggle switch to "on". If on "Auto" or "off", the oil heat wouldn't kick on in any of the zones (outdoor temp too warm). I'd really like to be able to run the boiler zones independently while still having the minisplit heads turn on/off at a specified outdoor temperature. 

GW

Gonna be hard to help much over the keyboard. How many zones are tied into the Kumo Station? Why would your basement zone be tied to the Kumo if there’s no wall unit down there? 

Specom

Kumo Station wiring to boiler 1 and 3 is for dry contact, No one post wiring pictures only talk....

rsilvers

GW said:

Mike, it seems like Massachusetts has an abundance of electricity (lots of PV solar) and the utilities are trying to encourage people to burn more watts.

If supply exceeded demand they would lower prices to get more people to use up the extra power. MA has ri-di-cu-lously high electric. Heat-pump in MA is double the cost per million BTU as natural gas furnace - making them only reasonable for cooling or for people who have excess solar capacity. It's not even cheaper than oil heat.