Zone that doesn't heat properly

Gordy

^ yes @SuperJ the goal would be to take measurements with all zones flowing wide open max speed, and take measurements, and then each individual zone. Or a combination of zones that seem to run together most of the time.

Measurements at
Boiler out
Boiler in
System sensor out
System in

Note boiler firing rate.

Preferably not right at startup.

This costs nothing, but your time.

ntonkin

I have a little chart made up for the readings. This morning's readings when I first got up were:
firing% 100
boiler in 136
boiler out161
system 141
delta T 25
flue temp 186
Secondary out 136
Secondary return 114
zones calling 1,2,3 & 5
Outside temp -9

I removed the "throttling" on zone 3 and changed the speed on zone 6 from AutoAdapt to constant pressure 2 - - both indicating 3 gal/min flow. The only "throttling" is a bit on the primary as SuperJ had recommended earlier.

Latest are:
firing% 100
boiler in 139
boiler out166
system 148
delta T 27
flue temp 191
Secondary out 142
Secondary return 120
zones calling 1,2,3,5 & 6
Outside temp -7

Now I'm ready to open everything up and let em run.

ntonkin

What do you guys think of the book "Primary-Secondary Pumping Made Easy!" by Dan Holohan?

ntonkin

All zones are wide open on fixed speed 3, primary is still on speed 1 with no throttling. At what intervals should I take reading?

Gordy

I would do some when all zones are calling if possible, and when one, or two are calling. Which I dont know how the system mostly calls for heat.

also watch for boiler cycling.

System temp is the sensor for the boiler you moved to the secondary out pipe from the sep well correct? If so I would just use that number which saves taking a reading. They seem to agree with a 5 degree spread so I would trust the sensor over the strap on thermometer.

SuperJ

27degF delta at 100% fire, looks like your getting close to a reasonable primary flow rate.

ntonkin said:

What do you guys think of the book "Primary-Secondary Pumping Made Easy!" by Dan Holohan?

Haven't read that one, but Dan's books have a reputation for being great. It's hard to find books that are written with the home owner in mind, but still technical enough to give a good education. Dan, seems like he draws a perfect balance between his target audience and technicality.

ntonkin

Gordy said:

I would do some when all zones are calling if possible, and when one, or two are calling. Which I dont know how the system mostly calls for heat. also watch for boiler cycling.
System temp is the sensor for the boiler you moved to the secondary out pipe from the sep well correct? If so I would just use that number which saves taking a reading. They seem to agree with a 5 degree spread so I would trust the sensor over the strap on thermometer.

Correct . . . they are both reading pipe surface temp. A 5 - 6 degree difference seems like a lot. I have some thermal paste coming tomorrow along with more strap-on thermometers. I think I'll use some thermal paste on the strap-on's too.

ntonkin

SuperJ said:

27degF delta at 100% fire, looks like your getting close to a reasonable primary flow rate.

ntonkin said:

What do you guys think of the book "Primary-Secondary Pumping Made Easy!" by Dan Holohan?

Haven't read that one, but Dan's books have a reputation for being great. It's hard to find books that are written with the home owner in mind, but still technical enough to give a good education. Dan, seems like he draws a perfect balance between his target audience and technicality.

Thanks SuperJ, I'll order a copy then.

ntonkin

SuperJ, That was with the primary "throttled" as you suggested earlier, I just recently removed the "throttle". The graphs and chart look interesting, I'll have to study these a bit. Initially I'm at the "hog looking at a watch" stage.

SuperJ

I'll defer to Gordy, since he is trying to be methodical, and my suggestions are going to throw a curveball in his process. Just see my posts as comments, but follow Gordy's instructions. If the last measurements were with the throttle I would leave it in, until directed otherwise. If anything I suspect in the end you may have to throttle it a bit more (but don't yet, it kinda depends where your zone flow/delta's end up too).

It would worth reading the manual and setting up your outdoor reset properly. (but after your get your primary flow dialed in, don't want to change too much at once).
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/KBN106-Service.pdf

Gordy

Actually @superj has my curiosity about the hydro sep being fouled.......never seen it. @hot_rod had one sent back with a hand sock in it.

You're getting stuff out of the clean out port.

At some point we should be able to match both boiler (which appears to be around 9 gpm), and system flows closely enough to send the same boiler flow out as the system flow. So boiler out, system out temps closely match, and system in, and boiler in match.

Right now I'm just seeing how the system out temps react with the system flow changes. Not much so far, but don't change anything just take some readings.

ntonkin

First full bore readings:
firing% 98
boiler in 161
boiler out181
system 167
delta T 20
flue temp 194
Secondary out 154
Secondary return 135
zones calling 3 & 5
Outside temp +13

Gordy

@SuperJ the manual doesn't indicate a 3 speed 26-99fc only the 26-99f.

Interesting as even in speed 3 the curve does not match the 26-99.

Gordy

Is the primary wide open? On speed 1

SuperJ

I wonder if the 3 speed chart is with a check installed. Maybe that's the "c" in 26-99fc?

SuperJ

I still feel that even though it’s unlikely, something might be up with the separator. My gut tells me the boiler outlet temps should be lower based on the rest of the readings even with the expected mixing.

If the boiler return (161f) is 26f higher than the system return (135f) the boiler outlet (181f) and system sensor(154f) should be closer than they are even with a bit of mixing. I'd expect a bit of delta due to strap on sensors and such, but not almost 30degF between both the supply and return simultaneously. It’s seems like a blockage or fouling in the separator might be keeping the primary and secondary from crossing the separator as easily as they should.

I’d like to hear @hot_rod chime in on this?

ntonkin

Gordy said:

Is the primary wide open? On speed 1

Absolutely

hot_rod

Be nice to read all the temperatures with the same accurate thermometer. Or a point and shoot infrared gun. i came across on mod con that had the sensors misfired and the readings were flopped.

I can't see enough in the first pic, if it is a Caleffi Sep 4 the top unscrews to pull out the screen inside. It will have a large brass top like this.

Gordy

One thing is for sure with the crud that’s been flushed that alpha may not digest well over time.

I agree on the temps readings, but I’m thinking at least using the boilers onboard in/out, and system supply sensors keeps things somewhat consistent.

Gordy

@hot_rod is that screen fine mesh, or coarser? I can’t imagine fine particulates getting hung up enough to plug the mesh. Unless it were a big slug all at once.

ntonkin

hot_rod said:

Be nice to read all the temperatures with the same accurate thermometer. Or a point and shoot infrared gun. i came across on mod con that had the sensors misfired and the readings were flopped.

I can't see enough in the first pic, if it is a Caleffi Sep 4 the top unscrews to pull out the screen inside. It will have a large brass top like this.

The Caleffi is a 1" series 548 the spec sheet has 38505.03 at the top. There is a close-up pic of the separator above in the series provided for Tom_133 This unit was purchased 6 years ago and as I remember, it doesn't come apart.
I have tried several different infrared guns and the temperatures they indicated were so erratic that I gave up on them. Any recommendations on a reliable gun?

Gordy

Use painters tape on the pipe you are shooting. IR will give erratic readings on different emissive surfaces

Gordy

You could shoot where the system supply sensor is located to verify accuracy. You should also be very close to the spot you are taking a reading. The aspect ratio can be wide on some of them.

Tom_133

Where are you located? If one of us is nearby, we could probably get this thing nailed down.

SuperTech

I highly recommend Primary secondary pumping made easy. It's a great book to learn from and Dan's writing style make it a pleasure to read. I can usually read the whole book in two nights.

Gordy

If this were a Hydro Cal high performance separator I might find fouling a little more believable, but the standard appears to have the mesh up near the top ports more for trapping air bubbles.

Anything is possible.....

Gordy

Any readings this AM?

ntonkin

Tom_133 said:

Where are you located? If one of us is nearby, we could probably get this thing nailed down.

I'm in the western Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Watersmeet township.

ntonkin

Gordy said:

Any readings this AM?

firing% 100
boiler in 154
boiler out175
system 130
delta T 21
flue temp 188
Secondary out 148
Secondary return 130
zones calling 3 & 6
Outside temp +16

SuperTech

> @ntonkin said:
> Where are you located? If one of us is nearby, we could probably get this thing nailed down.
>
> I'm in the western Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Watersmeet township.

That leaves me out unfortunately, I was hoping you were local to my area, I'd really like to have a crack at this one.

ntonkin

I ordered a Etekcity Lasergrip 1080 Laser temperature gun last night - should be here Saturday.

Gordy

The system sensor is reading 18 degrees less than the secondary out well thermometer......

ntonkin

firing% 100
boiler in 165
boiler out185
system 164
delta T 20
flue temp 195
Secondary out 150
Secondary return 135
zones calling 2 & 3
Outside temp +17

Gordy

That’s better. Let’s try throttling the boiler side down a bit for the next run. See if we can get the system out temp higher, and boiler in lower. Don’t get crazy. Just make small adjustments, take readings, and see if it has any effect.

ntonkin

Gordy said:

That’s better. Let’s try throttling the boiler side down a bit for the next run. See if we can get the system out temp higher, and boiler in lower. Don’t get crazy. Just make small adjustments, take readings, and see if it has any effect.

It's doing a lot of "standing by" and "setpoint met" now but the system out is 10 degrees higher than the boiler input now

Gordy

What are the temps?

ntonkin

Gordy said:

What are the temps?

firing% 100
boiler in 137
boiler out160
system 143
delta T 24
flue temp 169
Secondary out 140
Secondary return 127
zones calling 2, 3 & 6
Outside temp +21

Notice that zone 3 is almost always calling for heat.

SuperJ

It would be helpful to note the set point (or is it always 165f). What zones have the highest flows and temp deltas? I wonder where all your heat is going with the boiler at 100% with only 3 zones calling.

Make sure readings are taken once things have reached equilibrium.

SuperJ

Something I missed from you original post. Is the zone 3 thermostat issue. Is it on an outside wall? Is there a hole behind it? If so plug up the hole.

Can you swap thermostats with another zone and see if the problem moves with the stat.

ntonkin

SuperJ said:

Something I missed from you original post. Is the zone 3 thermostat issue. Is it on an outside wall? Is there a hole behind it? If so plug up the hole.



Can you swap thermostats with another zone and see if the problem moves with the stat.

No, it's on an interior wall as far as you can get from an outside wall in that zone. I have switched it out with the thermostat in the garage (which works fine out there) and it does the same thing. Just bought a new (program-able) thermostat that I'll install in the morning. I checked the wire hole in the wall and couldn't detect any cool air coming through it but I'll plug it anyway.