What’s a good brand thermostatic radiator vent?

Mike_Sheppard

Any suggestions on good quality vs price one pipe steam thermostatic radiator vents? I have a customer with approximately 100 radiators in the building, who may be interested in adding these. I have personally never used one before.

nicholas bonham-carter

Maybe all that is needed is a bit of balancing of the venting of the system, and all the radiators will heat up at the same time, making everyone more happy.—NBC

Dave0176

Danfoss.

Mike_Sheppard

@nicholas bonham-carter I am working on that. We are adding a false water line to take care of some uncovered wet return issues. As well as adding adequate venting on the mains in the basement. Building was built in 1901, with an old coal piped system.

Adding vents to the tops of the risers where the radiators are in the top floor apartments is going to be the challenge. I looked at them and there is no room to move them without having to make some significant changes. Five story building. Since venting the tops of the risers may not be an option for now, I thought experimenting with these vents would be a decent option.

Dave0176

https://www.danfoss.com/en-us/products/radiator-and-room-thermostats/dhs/thermostatic-radiator-valves-and-operators/thermostatic-radiator-valves/#tab-overview

@Mike_Sheppard these are used for one pipe steam.

Mike_Sheppard

@Dave0176 thank you!

That’s exactly what I am looking for.

STEAM DOCTOR

Available @ supplyhouse.com. Remember that you need a strait air also. 1/8"

Intplm.

I agree with @Dave0176 . Danfoss.... have used them with great success.

DanHolohan

We’re using Tunstall’s Macon valves at The General Society. They’re terrific. So us Tunstall.

ChrisJ

I have two Danfoss and three Macon in my house.

The Macons seem built better and are sold as a complete set rather than individual pieces.

I think Danfoss ends up cheaper to buy though.

Both work but I like the Macon more.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=MAC-OPSK-W/EVO

Mike_Sheppard

The Macon looks nice. I like that’s it’s ready to go out of the box.

They do cost a pretty penny though. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the customer to purchase them as needed to help bring the heat down in problem apartments.

We’re in the process of improving the system with main venting and a false water line, but we aren’t going to be putting vents on the tops of the risers on the fifth floor yet. A lot of work will need to be done to make that happen.

I have a feeling the lower floors will still be getting too hot without having the riser vents.

ChrisJ

Mike_Sheppard said:

The Macon looks nice. I like that’s it’s ready to go out of the box.



They do cost a pretty penny though. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the customer to purchase them as needed to help bring the heat down in problem apartments.



We’re in the process of improving the system with main venting and a false water line, but we aren’t going to be putting vents on the tops of the risers on the fifth floor yet. A lot of work will need to be done to make that happen.



I have a feeling the lower floors will still be getting too hot without having the riser vents.

They're complete, but not ready to go.
You need to assemble the actuator, vacuum breaker, vent and vent extension.

Depending on how long the piping is, the vents may help. That said, some of my runouts are 20' long and I'm not venting them separately though I do have Gorton C's on those radiators. If I needed to vent those radiators slower, I'd vent the pipes.

In my situation, I'd likely drill and tap the pipe side of the radiators. That looks more "appropriate" to me than a vent on the pipe and has the same effect.

Mike_Sheppard

@ChrisJ that’s a good idea.

Here’s what I’m dealing with. This is how they’re connected. Didn’t get a full picture but every one of them butts right up against a corner on the other sides. Not sure if there’s enough room there to tap the pipe or not. Maybe an 1/8inch tap.

Risers are five stories tall coming right off the mains.

ChrisJ

Mike_Sheppard said:

@ChrisJ that’s a good idea.



Here’s what I’m dealing with. This is how they’re connected. Didn’t get a full picture but every one of them butts right up against a corner on the other sides. Not sure if there’s enough room there to tap the pipe or not. Maybe an 1/8inch tap.



Risers are five stories tall coming right off the mains.

Personally, if they are 5 stories tall I think they should be vented one way or another.

1/8" NPT is plenty.

I have no experience with systems this large though.
Perhaps @JohnNY or @Steamhead can comment regarding riser venting.

gfrbrookline

Stay away from honeywell they don't have a vacuum breaker and will cause issues in your system.

Mike_Sheppard

@ChrisJ I will do some research and calculate the amount of air in the risers.

They go up five floors and on each floor the branch out left and right to a radiator on each side. I’ll have to figure out what size the branches are as well.

But that’s good actually because I could put a tap on both of the radiators at the top and add air vents.

gfrbrookline

Just reread the whole thread. Don't touch the radiators until you figure out your basement issues. Fix the returns, make sure you are massed out on main venting. Once you have that figured out you will likely need to re-balance your radiators. I would put Gorton D's on top of each riser. Since this is an apartment building and you can't rely on tenants not to tamper with adjustable vents I would put Hoffman 40's on all of the radiators to balance the heat.

gfrbrookline

If you can't vent the top of the risers you can tap the supply side of the radiator and put the Gordon D there and a slow vent on the opposite side. That will allow you to vent the radiator slowly and the main quickly.

gfrbrookline

Meant vent the radiator slowly and the riser quickly.

Mike_Sheppard

@gfrbrookline that’s what’s being done already.

We’re in the process of doing the repairs in the basement. Just wanted to know what brand of TRV was the favorite.

gfrbrookline

Once your fix the basement you shouldn't need TRV's. They are a band aid for a larger problem.

Mike_Sheppard

Once I fix the basement the risers won’t be vented yet. I want to give the customer an option. Plus I just wanted to know in general what people thought the best TRV is.

gfrbrookline

The problem with TRV's in apartment is if one tenant turns the TRV to off it can trough the entire system out of balance. The Danfoss unit does have an operator that has landlord settings that allows for minimum and maximum operating temperatures. Since this is single pipe steam and the rads are up against a corner fitting a TRV is going to be a challenge.

Venting the risers and re-balencing the rads will likely be a much easier and likely more cost effective option.

ChrisJ

The entire reason for TRVs is so tenants can have radiators off. That's literally how they function and it's not a band aid for anything. They don't balance a system, vents do that.

I have a system with 10 radiators and I have TRVs on 5 of them. Turning them all off doesn't throw the other rooms out of balance.

coelcanth

what does a TRV do with the steam that would otherwise be condensing in the radiator if it was set to heat ?

how is a TRV that is set to 'no heat' different than, say, turning a radiator's vent upside down so steam does not enter ?

sounds like there is some confusion about how they work
i sure don't know how they work either

ChrisJ

> @coelcanth said:
> what does a TRV do with the steam that would otherwise be condensing in the radiator if it was set to heat ?
>
> how is a TRV that is set to 'no heat' different than, say, turning a radiator's vent upside down so steam does not enter ?
>
> sounds like there is some confusion about how they work
> i sure don't know how they work either

On a single pipe system they can either have no effect, throttle the venting it close off venting completely.

This will cause more steam to go to other radiators but shouldn't throw off balance between the ones that need heat.

A TRV uses a simple wax motor that expands and contracts with temperature change. This opens and closes the valve that controls the vent connected to it.

My system was balanced without them but I added TRVs to cope with changes like sun, wind, the oven going etc. The most important things are having the system balanced fairly good with venting, keeping pressure reasonably low and running enough cycles.

Scott.Malo

Hi Everyone! Scott Malo here. I am the Director of Energy Solutions for Tunstall Corporation & Macon Controls. I just wanted to clarify a few items for the folks participating in this discussion. The 1-pipe steam valves we provide are purposely shipped loose (not assembled) as there are situations where the air vent could hit a wall during the threading of the valve, which brings me to my second observation. These valves are installed where the current 1/8" air vent would be on the radiator, not where the hand valve is currently installed. Those hand valves should be kept open as the TRV will now open and close depending on what the thermostat is set for. There is some residual balancing benefits as the steam will travel to where it is needed vs. just running wild to uncontrolled radiators. We also concur that the Master Venting should also be addressed. Our 1-pipe steam valves come standard with a vacuum breaker and there are multiple options for thermostat (i.e. if radiator is inside of an enclosure, etc.). If anyone would like some pricing, please do not hesitate to email me at smalo@tunstall-inc.com. Thanks All!

gfrbrookline

I am not a fan of TRV's on single pipe steam since it allows tenants to turn their radiators off thus reducing edr and oversizing boilers beyond what they usually are. That being said if you go that route they need to have vacuum breakers. That leaves you with two options, Danfoss and Macon. I have experience with Danfoss in a unit that insisted on having some control over the heat, the temp control has a landlord function that let me set the heat range to the radiator so it could not be set lower than the thermostat. After I massed out the main venting and balanced all of the units the trv is redundant but it keeps her happy. Not sure if the Macon has the same feature, otherwise it looks like a solid unit.

Mike_Sheppard

@Scott.Malo thank you for your reply! Much appreciated.

When we were talking about 8th inch tappings on the valves we meant for riser venting. I sure hope no one would put a TRV on the main! But I wouldn’t be surprised if I saw it...

@gfrbrookline I would never use these as an alternative to main venting. I just wanted to know what a good brand is since I’ve never used one before. I could see it coming in handle in special situations. I work in a lot of 100+ unit apartment buildings that have absolutely god-awful systems that have been hacked up over the years. I suppose they could come in handy in certain situations.