Riello F5 tuning and combustion analysis #s

please_reboot

I recently finished my new heating system and everything is up and running.
I have a PurePro Trio P4 w/ a Riello F5.
I'm running a .65 x 60 A nozzle w/ pump pressure at 175psi (trying to downfire a slight bit from recommended 200psi)

Here are the numbers from my gas analyzer (i never set the date/time), which has a new 02 sensor. Don't know how old C0 sensor is, but it's not throwing any errors. Getting consistent numbers from the unit, 0 ppm CO-amb in boiler room. I started at recommended manufacturer's specs.

What concerns me is the high CO numbers, which were in mid 200ppm and now just over 300ppm.
The overfire pressure is +0.06, and the specs call for +0.04, and I can't seem to get the number down.

The air shutter on the burner is at 0.75, which seemed to me to be pretty closed up...
The turbulator is at 0.5, which is what is recommended afaik.
Smoke test zero to maybe 1 on the scale.

The efficiency number looks good, the CO2 looks just about right (11% spec), the deltaT is 358 deg., excess air seems ok...

I'm taking the measurements when it's been up and running 3 to 5 minutes or so. I'm letting the analyzer sit for about 60 to 75 seconds to get measurements.

Am I correct to be taking all measurements save for the overfire reading from the flue? I'm a homeowner, and this was a project so I got the equipment I thought I needed (pump/vacuum gauges, smoke tester, analyzer).

I was trying to find out if i could reduce the overfire draft by moving the turbulator to a higher number...but am a little confused as to exactly what measurement is changing (the turbulator nozzle is fixed and both move in relation to endcone of the burner tube?). The manual says the F5 has 0-3 markings but mine has 0-4, so would initial setting then be skewed if manufacturer is assuming the markings are 0-3?

Thanks,

Jason

STEVEusaPA

Something is not right. Your CO is too high and your showing an .08 difference between over fire and breech (-.02 to +.06)
You should use the set up provided by Riello in your manual-all settings, nozzle, pump pressure.
Smoke should be true 0.
It’s possible your analyzer isn’t working properly. Did you have it calibrated or just replace a sensor?
I’d also pull the nozzle assembly, and make sure the nozzle is centered as you look thru the turbulator (end cone).
I wouldn’t start playing with the head setting.
Maybe bring in a pro and let them go over everything & show you how to set it up properly and use your tools. They can also check your analyzer against theirs.

SuperTech

You have the equipment, but not the knowledge necessary to do this type of work. Those CO numbers, if accurate, say that the equipment is unsafe to operate. Did you purchase a soot vacuum and brushes? You probably need to properly clean the boiler and then address setting the draft and combustion. You should stick to the manufacturers specifications as far as pump pressure, fine tune by adjusting the air only.
I appreciate the fact that you bought the tools necessary to perform the job but I still would recommend calling in a pro. Then you can (hopefully) learn how to set it up correctly. Hopefully he can confirm if your analyzer is functioning correctly as well. Don't operate the boiler if it's producing over 100 PPM.

HVACNUT

> @please_reboot said:
> I recently finished my new heating system and everything is up and running.
> I have a PurePro Trio P4 w/ a Riello F5.
> I'm running a .65 x 60 A nozzle w/ pump pressure at 175psi (trying to downfire a slight bit from recommended 200psi)
>
You lowered the pump pressure so OEM settings must be adjusted.

> Here are the numbers from my gas analyzer (i never set the date/time), which has a new 02 sensor. Don't know how old C0 sensor is, but it's not throwing any errors. Getting consistent numbers from the unit, 0 ppm CO-amb in boiler room. I started at recommended manufacturer's specs.
>
Seems ok.

> What concerns me is the high CO numbers, which were in mid 200ppm and now just over 300ppm.
> The overfire pressure is +0.06, and the specs call for +0.04, and I can't seem to get the number down.
>
Your analyzer doesn't show draft?
Can you adjust the draft regulator to get +.04 OF?

> The air shutter on the burner is at 0.75, which seemed to me to be pretty closed up...
> The turbulator is at 0.5, which is what is recommended afaik.
> Smoke test zero to maybe 1 on the scale.
>
.5 on the turbulator is correct at 200 psi.
The air gate should be set to 3.25, not .75, again at 200 psi.

> The efficiency number looks good, the CO2 looks just about right (11% spec), the deltaT is 358 deg., excess air seems ok...
>
> I'm taking the measurements when it's been up and running 3 to 5 minutes or so. I'm letting the analyzer sit for about 60 to 75 seconds to get measurements.
>
The boiler needs to reach steady state which is when the flue temp has stabilized. It might jump up and down a degree or two, but does not continue to rise.
> Am I correct to be taking all measurements save for the overfire reading from the flue? I'm a homeowner, and this was a project so I got the equipment I thought I needed (pump/vacuum gauges, smoke tester, analyzer).
>
It's nice to have a project if you have the right tools and instruments. And, as you already know, you can come here for help. Pics?

> I was trying to find out if i could reduce the overfire draft by moving the turbulator to a higher number...but am a little confused as to exactly what measurement is changing (the turbulator nozzle is fixed and both move in relation to endcone of the burner tube?). The manual says the F5 has 0-3 markings but mine has 0-4, so would initial setting then be skewed if manufacturer is assuming the markings are 0-3?
>
The turbulator has 4 marks, the first one being 0.
> Thanks,
>
> Jason

The test is done when draft is set and there's a 0 smoke. No trace.
Did you do a heat loss calculation? You needed the P4? 140K input?
Did you opt for outdoor reset?

please_reboot

@STEVEusaPA:
I've already asked a few Pros in my area and both gave me a pat answer "we do seasonal tuneups, call next season to schedule a tuneup." almost verbatim w/ both. If there's a pro in the area I'm in (Canterbury, CT 06331), I'd love to have them out to me. I understand the need to check my numbers and adjustments against a pro and am totally willing to pay for the knowledge.
I've had the nozzle asm. out and double checked it's centered to turbulator head and also nozzle/turb asm. to burn tube. When it's centered in the tube, the asm. gives a noticeable 'click.'

@SuperTech:
I'm in total agreement with you. I'm a IT network engineer by trade, so I understand. That being said, I'm an IT network engineer...LOL.
The unit's been up and running a 1 1/2 weeks. I have backup wood stove heat. I thoroughly cleaned the unit and the burner and checked it a few days ago...no sooting to speak of thus far. I have the vacuum & brushes.

@HVACNUT
I'll bring up the pump pressure back to 200psi.
I'll set the air shutter to 3.25.
I'll take a pic of the head settings this evening
The P4 is oversized for the space heating (2 zones, 2000 sq ft 2 level post & beam colonial, 1st floor all open) but sized to the indirect since I've got big jetted tub. The cycles seem very short ~3 to 4 min.
I just got the ODR for the Hydrostat 3250+. It's running w/ "Thermal Targetting" which seems to be a reason for the shorter cycles since it's firing from cold to 145, then each successive cycle bumping up 10 deg till it "feels" the zone is satisfied. I'd much prefer to

The controls on the unit are set up to mimic PurePro's Energy Manager II (Honeywell AQ25042B + Hydrostat 3250+). I believe all the wiring is correct. Have it hooked to 2 AQ1000 T-stats.
I'm utilizing 2 out of 4 space heating zones and the indirect zone.
I'm prepping for possible radiant floor zone and a zone in my garage. (way in the future)


The Testo 325m does pressure, but I didn't have the display set to properly display the pressure lines, hence my writing them down. I'll adjust the display settings.
The equipment is used, so I have no verification the CO is actually accurate.
All my measurements have the stack temps being consistently within a few degrees of eachother. I put the zone controller into test mode and let it fire away.

I know I need a pro's knowledge (that's why I've signed up for the site), and if there's anyone near me willing to help, please message me. I didn't really see anyone near me when I performed a search on this site. I want to learn, but know I'm not going to be a pro, but think I can be competent on my own equipment. After putting together this system, I have a very healthy respect for all of you pros!

Here's a pic of the system.

HVACNUT

Turned out better than a lot of installations by so called pros. Good job.
If you remove and plug one draft regulator you should be able to get the draft down to +.04 O.F.
Hint- install braided flexible oil lines between the tiger loop and burner so the door can swing out without having to disconnect them.
If you plan on using outside combustion air to the Riello, the crimps on the piping should run in the direction of the airflow. No flexible hose and use a barometric relief damper.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Mark where your air shutter is now. Your smoke #s are borderline and your CO is high. Just open the air very slightly and see what the C0 does. If it goes down try and get the CO below 100 (it shouldn't have to run at anywhere near 100)

I would definitely get a professional to look at this. Opening the air may lower CO and smoke but will also lower you C02 so something is probably a mis.

Your boiler came from FW Webb. Maybe they can recommend a technician

please_reboot

@HVACNUT
Thank you, that's a big compliment! What's a little difficult to see is that I have braided flex lines off the coated tubing from the tigerloop. Since my behemoth wood stove is on the left side of the boiler (as I was using the stove during installation), I needed to plumb everything to the right side, that's why the little lengths of coated line, so the door could swing to the right.
The unit came from a previous owner in upstate NY and I had bought it about 3 years ago, and it was serviced regularly for the previous 7 seasons. Came with the burner, spirovent, coated copper lines, draft regs (I think he had a pretty short chimney). FWWebb was gracious enough to extend the remaining warranty to me.
I can plug the top draft regulator and see. I've got that 6" exh reduced into a 20 ft, 5" smoothwall flexible liner that I insulated. The seller of the liner verfied that it could handle 155KBTU at that length.
I was thinking of bringing in outside air, but don't know if it's worth it. I've already got a 4" screened inlet piped, but have it capped. I appreciate the advice on the direction of the ducting and use of baro damper!

@EBEBRATT-Ed
I did a reset on the burner settings tonight per @HVACNUT 's suggestion and the numbers look better. CO still a little high. I had a contact person from the mgr. at the local store, but he gave me the info a few years ago and the number is now out of service. Go figure. I'll call them again, see who they can recommend.


I set the pump pressure back to 200 psi, moved the air shutter to 3.25 and ran it about 5 minutes, took numbers. The printout on the left side is from the first set of measurements I took before moving the air shutter, with the settings I posted last night but with pump pressure 200 psi. The over fire went up to + 0.08. Smoke test was still a 1.
I'm still screwing around with the display on the testo hence written numbers.

Right hand printout is after I set the air shutter down to 2.5.
Still have the O.F. @ +0.06, flue @ -0.02

I didn't take smoke test on the second set of numbers, but I should have.

Also attached a pic of the head markings. It's got 5 markings (1st for zero, last for 4). This is why I'm a bit confused as to the actual head settings. I'm still at the 0.5 setting. Would changing the head settings affect the O.F. reading as the air would be a different ratio of primary, secondary, tertiary? Problem is the more I research, the less I realize I know, and the more questions I have!

EBEBRATT-Ed

looks like it's going in the right direction. I would say you need more air. Combustion can be dangerous.

please_reboot

@EBEBRATT-Ed -- Tomorrow I'll play with opening up the shutter bit by bit. If I can get the CO down and find the balance w/ the other numbers, then I'll plug the 2nd baro damper and do tests again to see the difference. This does get time consuming, now I'm starting to understand....

HVACNUT

Plug the regulator hole first.
Proper draft must be set before the test.
The boiler needs to run for an extended period so open the tub spout, crank the heat and make adjustments after its reached steady state. Adjust/check readings, adjust/check readings. Give time between each adjustment so the analyzer has time to register the new input.
And of course all with a 0 smoke. And you should be able to get a 0 ppm CO.
Slight adjustments on the turbulator can help too. Lower numbers move more air around the turb disc, lowering O2 and increasing CO2. The higher the number, the more air goes through the turbulator disc giving the opposite effect.
12% or near CO2
4.5%-6.5% O2
25%-30% excess air
+.04 O.F.
0 smoke

Grallert

That boiler and burner combo should be able to get a higher CO2 number and a lower O2 number. somewhere around 12% and 5% with zero smoke and a lower flue temp. That should lower your CO quite a bit. There are a number of ways to achieve that; less air is one pump pressure is an other. Have you verified the pump pressure?

please_reboot

@HVACNUT -- Will do as you suggest regarding testing. It sounds like turbulator is one of the last things to adjust? I'll shoot for those numbers.

@Grallert -- Yes, I verified the pump #'s. Here's a pic. That's after burner has been running about 4 minutes w/ gauge hooked up - no varying in reading. (I didn't have vacuum gauge hooked up, have another vacuum guage on tigerloop, and verified both guages match)

So where I'm at is this:
1. Will plug the draft reg
2. Will run boiler for about 5-7 min, take measurements, smoke test.
3. Adjust to zero smoke ??? Then take measurements again?

Can opening up the air shutter actually reduce my smoke?

Thanks again guys, I'll keep the info coming. If you want pics, just ask.

Grallert

If you're getting smoke, more air or less fuel to air will get rid of the smoke. Keep in mind there is a pretty fine line. If you increase the air too much you can also get a spot on your paper, not smoke, maybe a yellow tint. Too much air can cool the flame and cause incomplete combustion on the other side of the scale.
I always like to make my combustion adjustments for a good start up, good CO2 Near 12 or 13% no CO all at a steady state then I look for smoke. I've always thought that the F5 was to big for the Pure Pro boilers I've worked on. Granted it's been a few years. I felt an F3 would be more appropriate, but that's maybe just me. So get your numbers first then look for smoke. Sometime tweaking the pump pressure is more accurate than trying to make fine adjustments to the shutter.

please_reboot

Not too much time to play last night, but I plugged up the upper draft regulator and got the boiler to steady state, which I think I maybe hadn't been doing completely on other tests....I actually let the unit run a full 10 minutes.
I played around with the air shutter settings after I adjusted for a -0.02 flue draft, as after plugging the upper regulator the draft went to -0.01 at steady state.
I'll get the exact numbers on here this evening, but what I experienced is that opening up the shutter (to 3) greatly increased my CO, up to almost 500ppm, while closing it down (to 0.75) brought the CO number down to aprox. 145ppm, while keeping CO2 at 11.5%, EA @ 33.5%, O2 @ (I think 6.7%). O.F draft was still +0.06, zero smoke reading. Draft temp was about 445F.

CO 145ppm
CO2 11.5%
O2 6.7%
O.F. +0.06
Flue -0.02
Ex Air 33.5%
Gross Stack 445F
Efficiency 85.9%
Ambient Temp 64F


So possibly lowering pump pressure a hair and possibly lowering # on turb setting a touch....?

Just seems like the burner is too big, as @Grallert mentioned. I keep coming back to cranking that shutter way down. The noise of the flame was less and looking through the tiny port the flame looked tighter, pulled back towards the head a bit more, less licks of flame on the outer edges.

I do have a local pro coming out soon.

Grallert

So possibly lowering pump pressure a hair and possibly lowering # on turb setting a touch....? I'd also be tempted to try a B nozzle and a W maybe even going to a .55 as long as your are following every move with a digital analyzer.

please_reboot

@Grallert I've been really tempted to get a .55 W nozzle, but wanted to see what I could do with the .65 A. I've got good filtration.

ChasMan

Hi, You keep asking about the turbulator which is understandable since little is written on it in the manuals and various 3rd party books and courseware pay little attention to it. Riello has an excellent course which covers burner set up and maintenance. It is free, you just have to register. Back to the turbulator, the primary slots, they make the flame spin and mix the fuel and air. The secondary slots trap the oil and air mixture and provide for the correct amount of air around the retention ring which affects the firing rate. The trouble with all of this knowledge is you need to be a flame engineer to use it. They don't sell a meter to test to see if it is set correctly. So the methodology they were teaching in the course was open it up so you don't get sooting on the disc. If you open it too far you will get brown residue. The actual setting is related to the firing rate. They have a table to use as a starting point. The other effect of the turbulator though is flame shape which may be impactful to electrode position. It can even move a flame forward and back under certain circumstances far enough to cause issues like flameout or burning off the head of the blast tube.