VisionPRO 8000 Options....

NY_Rob

Happy post Christmas everyone!

After reading many positive reviews, going to try using a Vision Pro TH8320WF thermostat for my upstairs zone where we use a couple deg nighttime setback for sleeping comfort.
Have a couple of questions regarding the install options....

Boiler: HTP UFT80-W mod-con
Vision Pro controlled zone: Four upstairs bedrooms plus full bath, all fin-tube baseboard.

Question #1:
Function 0240 "Heating Cycle Rate"...
The install manual indicates using 3 Cycles/hr for "Hot water or high efficiency furnace (more than 90% efficiency). Well the UFT80-W certainly is a 90%+ efficiency mod-con... but it sometimes runs for an hour or three satisfying a call for heat. Does that "3 Cycles/hr" setting effect anything during a prolonged call for heat (imagine a two hour call)? Should I use something other than the recommended cycle/hr setting?

Question #2:
Function 0530 "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery"...
I plan to enable it so I can have the setpoint met at 6:30am every morning. As I understand it, the t-stat "learns" how long it takes to reach setpoint and starts runtime based on that. Since it could be 5F or 45F outdoors and my boiler will be supplying 150F water or possibly 110F water (due to it's ODR sensor), recovery time will vary based on outside temps and varying heatloss right?
How does the tstat "learn" recovery time with varying SWT and varying outdoor temps?
Do I need to install it's optional Outdoor Temp Sensor so it can use outdoor temps in it's calculations?


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Just remembered, two more quick questions....

Is 0347 "Droop Temperature Steady State" the equivalent of "Differential" setting on conventional t-stats?

Is 0680 "Heat Temperature Control" the equivalent of "Anticipator" setting on mechanical t-stats?





Thanks in advance for any assistance!

ChrisJ

Does your unit actually have those options?
It's been a few years but I seem to recall mine not having the droop setting etc.

I'm not sure what they do, but I can help with #240 and #530.

I hate Adaptive Intelligent Recovery. I set my schedule based on what I want, not what the thermostat thinks I want. As far as how it goes about it, I believe it uses the same system it uses for it's CPH. So, if it's been doing long cycles, it's going to start the system far ahead, to give it time to catch up. If it's been doing a few short cycles occasionally, it's going to assume not much time is needed.

No one has really said how CPH actually works and I don't think Honeywell wants anyone to know.

I saw it published somewhere that cycles per hour is what the equipment should do when it's near 60% load, or some load number. Again, it's been a few years so it could've been 70% etc, I don't remember. But, assuming it's 60%, when set to 3 CPH it should run roughly 3 times per hour.

If you set it to 3 and run it for a day or two it's going to change it's behavior with how the system behaves. Meaning if it runs for X amount of time and shuts off but undershoots, the next cycle it'll run longer. If it overshoots, it'll run less time. How much longer or less depends on how much it under or over shoots. It does this every time it runs.

If you decide to change the CPH it seems like it always takes a while for the stat to settle down so don't be alarmed by a few short cycles etc.

Basically, CPH is your anticipator. The lower the number, the longer the system is going to run each time and the larger the temperature swing.

For radiant with a huge amount of mass, I'd probably start with 1 CPH and see how it does. I'm currently running 3 CPH with cast iron radiators and steam.

If you start with 1 CPH, and you think it's running too long and the swing is too much, go to 2 CPH and let it run for a day or two and see what you think. Always give it a while to settle down though.

The location of the thermostat also has a lot to do with how the CPH function works in my opinion.

NY_Rob

Thanks Chris!

I got this t-stat last year and never used it other than powering it up to make sure it wasn't DOA.
The "System Setup" guide that came w/the t-stat shows all the above features are accessible from the "installer menu" vs the "end user" menu in the "User Guide". I'm going to install it over the weekend so I'll find out then if it has all the features listed in the manual.

Guess I'll have to experiment with the CPH setting, but it's pretty hard to overshoot setpoint with 110F SWT

Presently, I schedule the heat to go from 67F to 69F at 4:45am. It usually takes about two full hours to raise the upstairs temp 2-3 deg. The only time It comes in a bit low is when its 45deg outside and I'm pumping 110F water into the radiators.

flat_twin

Rob I'm using the same Honeywell 8000 VP set to radiant heat, 2 cph. I also corrected the Honeywell -1 degree so it read the same as a trusted analog thermometer.

ChrisJ

flat_twin said:

Rob I'm using the same Honeywell 8000 VP set to radiant heat, 2 cph. I also corrected the Honeywell -1 degree so it read the same as a trusted analog thermometer.

Most indoor thermometers are +-2. Some are +.1.5F if you're lucky. That's still a 3 degree span.

ratio

I can't recall any droop setting except for a cooling droop for humidity control on a 8321U, but I'm unfamiliar with the WiFi model, it's possible it's different. You'll have a hard time getting a setback to work with ODR—the whole point of ODR is to add just enough heat to the space to overcome the heat loss. With a properly set up ODR, the space will never gain—or loose—temperature, so a setback is counterindicated. (I have heard of people being clever with a boost function of their boiler or playing games with the outdoor sensor that may result in successful recovery.)

ratio

In fact, if you can successfully recover from a setback, that is ipso facto proof that the outdoor reset is higher than necessary.

NY_Rob

@ratio... you are correct regarding ODR and setback. I in fact did enable Boost just for that reason. Without Boost, recovery took too long, but with Boost- I get +1 deg room temp rise every hour of boiler runtime.

NY_Rob

flat_twin said:

Rob I'm using the same Honeywell 8000 VP set to radiant heat, 2 cph. I also corrected the Honeywell -1 degree so it read the same as a trusted analog thermometer.

Thanks!
Sorry, I don't recall... do you have a mod-con with fin-tube?

flat_twin

NY_Rob said:

flat_twin said:

Rob I'm using the same Honeywell 8000 VP set to radiant heat, 2 cph. I also corrected the Honeywell -1 degree so it read the same as a trusted analog thermometer.

Thanks!
Sorry, I don't recall... do you have a mod-con with fin-tube?

mod-con with 10 cast iron rads

NY_Rob

^ Excellent, thanks!

That's a great combination BTW... mod-con + cast iron rads. Never short cycles I bet.

The zone I'm installing the VP on has only fin-tube unfortunately. Doesn't seem like there's much difference if I set the Cycle Rate at 2 or 3 CPH at this point....

NY_Rob

Installed my VP 8320WF on Sat, enrolled it with online service... no problems there (I had gone through a similar enrollment routine with other wi-fi t-stats). Entering my setback schedule online vs. via the front of the t-stat was super easy.

Left most settings at default other than entering my system type and setting the CPH to 2 in the installer menu for mod-con with baseboard.

After using the t-stat for two days I'm very impressed by how smoothly it seems to control the heat vs the Robert Shaw t-stat it replaced. I'm thinking that it partially due to the 2 CPH setting that keeps the boiler for running for longer periods and starts the heat calls earlier also because of the 2 CPH setting.

The "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery" actually worked quite well even though it's only been online two full days so far.
I have it set to bring the upstairs from 67F overnight to 69F at 6:30am. This morning when I got up at 6:50 it was exactly 69F upstairs. Don't know exactly what time it started the recovery, but I woke up for a bathroom trip at about 5am and the radiators were just barely warm so I'm guessing it had just started the recovery call minutes earlier. I had the old t-stat set to start the recovery at 4:45am. The VP did it for me automatically, and did it perfectly too. I'm actually pretty impressed how well the "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery" worked.

Overall, very happy with the VP8000!


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NY_Rob

Anyone try to access the VP 8K internal webserver?

Might be interesting to see what's behind the curtain....

ratio

AFAIK the web interface is all on Honeywell's end as the stats speak RedLINK (which is I believe an outgrowth of their 900 MHz security kit), although the WiFi version (as opposed to the RedLINK version w/ the internet gateway) may be different.

NY_Rob

Yeah, the WiFi version definitely has it's own internal webserver. As part of the initial t-stat setup you discover and log into it from a wireless device (phone/tablet/laptop computer) at 192.168.1.1 and then connect the t-stat to your home wireless network using it's gui.

ChrisJ

So,

How's it been doing on 2 CPH?

How does it compare to the T87F?

Adolfo2

flat_twin said:

I also corrected the Honeywell -1 degree so it read the same as a trusted analog thermometer.

Not to be confused with actually calibrating the 8000's internal sensor to a known "good" reference thermometer? Does the thermostat actually vary it's set point after doing this?

NY_Rob

The VP 8320WF has been working great Chris, thanks for asking.

I think the 2CPH with my mod-con is perfect, no cycling and no cold rooms either. We've had some uncharacteristically warm weather on LI lately but this am is was 37F with some wind (and no sun) so the "intelligent recovery" was under setpoint by 1deg this morning when I got up at 6:45am. It was up to setpoint when I went back upstairs about 30min later.

I hate to say it, but I think the VP heat control is actually more accurate than the old T87F or should I say it's more accurate than I have been able to make the T87F via it's anticipator setting. I'm guessing that if I wanted to put in xxx hours of effort fine tuning the anticipator on the T87F I may be able to get it closer to an ideal setting, but when you're circulating 105F water there's not much difference in room temp between a 15min and 30min period. It would take a lot of trial and error to get it dead-nuts perfect. I think that's where the VP 8320WF shines, it's ability to set CPH to whatever you like is a great feature and I was shocked to see it's been removed from the current Honeywell 9000 color series t-stats and replaced with only a few presets. FWIW- the other thing that's missing from the current Honeywell 9000 color series is the ability to use remote room sensor(s).

I am seriously considering replacing the one T87F I have left in service with another VisionPro 8320WF because the one I'm using upstairs has been great so far and I love the ability to be able to keep tabs on/adjust the zone temps when I'm not home.

Not to worry though, my T87F's will be going to a good home- not the mercury t-stat collection bin at the local supply house. Over the holidays I noticed by bro in-law's two T87F's were really looking ratty having gone through several repaints and a major home renovation. I believe they are original from when the home was built in the early 70's. I'll gladly give him my pristine T87F's with perfect wall cover plates so they stay in the family and continue to serve faithfully as they have over the years. It's funny, I literally still look at and admire the T87F every time I walk past it, it's just a gorgeous/timeless design... the VisionPro- not so gorgeous.

ChrisJ

Don't let the T87F worshipers hear that.

NY_Rob

^ well they will be going to a good home and I'll have visitation rights

flat_twin

Adolfo2 said:

flat_twin said:

I also corrected the Honeywell -1 degree so it read the same as a trusted analog thermometer.

Not to be confused with actually calibrating the 8000's internal sensor to a known "good" reference thermometer? Does the thermostat actually vary it's set point after doing this?

I don't think I have a good answer for you. It doesn't seem to have changed the set point. I just made it agree with what the analog and another digital thermometer read. The Vision Pro is a bit weird about the room temp display. I leave it set at 72 all the time. The display will say 72 even when other thermometers nearby display 71. Often the Vision Pro will go from 72 to 70 and skip the 71 reading altogether. Keep in mind I'm running the ODR to never quite satisfy the tstat as much as possible. I think the VP is just being optimistic. ;^)

NY_Rob

^ I've noticed the VP8000 "lie" a little when it comes to the room temp display.
Last Sat afternoon it was displaying 69F in our bedroom for the last couple of hours, but the heat hadn't come on in a while so it felt a little cold. I manually dialed the setpoint up to 70F just to cycle the boiler and add a little comfort heat. Well, without the heat ever coming on... 3min later the display suddenly indicated 70F. I touched the radiators... they were still ice cold, the heat had never come on and the thermometer in the adjacent room that has a 10th's display hadn't budged at all from 69.7F.

I attributed the 69F to 70F jump to rounding and the programmer's desire to show you that the t-stat was awesome and had met setpoint regardless if it was 69F or 70F.

ChrisJ

NY_Rob said:

^ I've noticed the VP8000 "lie" a little when it comes to the room temp display.
Last Sat afternoon it was displaying 69F in our bedroom for the last couple of hours, but the heat hadn't come on in a while so it felt a little cold. I manually dialed the setpoint up to 70F just to cycle the boiler and add a little comfort heat. Well, without the heat ever coming on... 3min later the display suddenly indicated 70F. I touched the radiators... they were still ice cold, the heat had never come on and the thermometer in the adjacent room that has a 10th's display hadn't budged at all from 69.7F.

I attributed the 69F to 70F jump to rounding and the programmer's desire to show you that the t-stat was awesome and had met setpoint regardless if it was 69F or 70F.

It will lie up to 2 degrees or so in either direction of the set point.
It's one of my biggest dislikes of the Honeywell thermostats. My Prestige does it as well.

SuperJ

I've noticed the lie too, some people are more comfortable if they think it's the right temperature...

NY_Rob

What do they say.... "everybody lies"... well even our machines lie to us now

ratio

Any time you have a digital thermostat that brings the heat on & off without the display changing, it's lying to you. Remember, the only way the thermostat knows that the space needs heat is that the temperature drops...

That said, I don't think it's a lie so much as the thermostat telling you that it thinks it's managing the temperature; & if you averaged the temp over time it would be about what it says.

NY_Rob

I had always wished digital display t-stats had 10th's displayed on their screen to take the guesswork out of it's operating characteristics. It's fairly common knowledge that they work/make decisions based on .1 resolution measurements... but we only get to see the whole number results on the display.

ChrisJ

ratio said:

Any time you have a digital thermostat that brings the heat on & off without the display changing, it's lying to you. Remember, the only way the thermostat knows that the space needs heat is that the temperature drops...

That said, I don't think it's a lie so much as the thermostat telling you that it thinks it's managing the temperature; & if you averaged the temp over time it would be about what it says.

No, it's a lie.
I have a youtube video somewhere of it doing it I think, but I can't find it right now.

If you change the setpoint and it decides to change the displayed room temperature a few seconds later, that's a lie.

The VisionPro and better thermostats operate on fractions of a degree to control room temperature, so there would be no reason for the displayed room temperature to change. 70.1 and 70.6 are still "70" when no decimal is displayed.

If you change the set point beyond a small amount it will suddenly display the actual temperature.

For example, if it's 68 and you raise it to 69 it'll change to 69 a few seconds later. If you go up to 75 it'll drop the displayed temperature back down to 68.

NY_Rob

^ I wonder if any of that strange "lying" behavior is based on your individual CPH setting or general anti/short cycling prevention?

Say you're set at 2CPH and you've already fired 2x that hour... now you manually change the setpoint up one deg, but the boiler is in time out purgatory for another xx min so the t-stat lies about the room temp to prevent firing 3X that hour and makes up happy by displaying the setpoint we desire?

Maybe it's too damn smart for our own good

ChrisJ

NY_Rob said:

^ I wonder if any of that strange "lying" behavior is based on your individual CPH setting or general anti/short cycling prevention?

Say you're set at 2CPH and you've already fired 2x that hour... now you manually change the setpoint up one deg, but the boiler is in time out purgatory for another xx min so the t-stat lies about the room temp to prevent firing 3X that hour and makes up happy by displaying the setpoint we desire?

Maybe it's too damn smart for our own good

No, because there really is no "2 cycles per hour"
It's just what the thermostat tries to plan it's day around, if that makes any sense.

Meaning, when the system is running at 60% of the time, or whatever number it is, it should run roughly twice per hour. It can run more, it can run less.


I believe the firmware is simply designed to lie to the customer so they think the room is the temperature they want it to be. Still more accurate than the cheesy thermometer in a T87 tho.

NY_Rob

^ that makes sense, kind of. But what's in it for Honeywell vs. just showing the real room temp? Lying to show you're at setpoint makes us believe their t-stats do a wonderful job of maintaining even room temps?

You should be nice to the T87F's... they gave many, many years of good service. Not many mechanical items in a home can run for 50+ years without a hiccup... and they don't lie to us either

ratio

They all do it. They have to. It's not them trying to make us believe how awesome they are, but to avoid returns for 'this POS is broken it said 77.9 but i set it to 78' and 'this POS is broken it said 65.1 but i set it to 65'. Most people wouldn't notice a 1° difference, but as soon as it's pointed out to them…

flat_twin

Exactly, The classic T87F with it's 2 degree increments was accurate enough, plus you (at least I did) had to squint to see anything finer than 1 degree variation.

This old thermostat talk reminds me of the tstat in a cage at my high school near the front door. The students had their own "I'm cold" switch. A couple good sized snowballs packed in the cage would get the heater going every time!