Over venting

SteamingatMohawk

Yes, Fred, I misread the name. Maybe I was thinking of the big red dog.

ethicalpaul, that's the article I referred to.

Back at you later this weekend.

SteamingatMohawk

Yesterday, I started the prep work to repipe the rear return to below the water line as suggested above. I am also going to add a drain valve, since there is none. I got as many precuts for the replacements made and prepped the joints in the new
pipe sections and fittings.

If you look at the two pictures above, I am going to remove the tee and elbow between the vents and run a new pipe down to the bottom of the Hartford Loop, using two tees, one to replace the elbow and another to have the return on the branch of the tee and the run to provide the drain valve. The photo should make this confusing explanation more understandable. This is the easy part.

At the top, where the copper tee and elbow connect the two returns, I will have to remove both fittings and install two couplings and a short nipple to take the place of the run of the tee. The arrangement is "old" and I am concerned with how difficult it will be to separate the copper fittings, and if the copper adapter to the black iron tees from the returns will get damaged or be unusable after the removal.

I have done smaller copper many times, but have no specific experience with larger pipe, especially this age and arrangement.

I have some options:

1. Try it now hoping for the best, assuming it should be reasonably easy to unsweat and reuse the fittings near the black iron tees and get it done in one day.
2. Wait until the heating season is over and I have "unlimited" time to recover from any major problem. Get help if I can't be successful.
3. Chicken out and pay my favorite local heating company to do the work now.
4. Don't mess with the existing arrangement. I have multiple recommendations to do the repiping, so I don't believe this is the best option.

SteamingatMohawk

Clarification, I want to try to avoid unscrewing the two male adapters to the black Iron. That's my biggest unknown.

Additionally, the returns are 3 inches apart at the top, but the space between the branches of the two tees at the bottom is 4 inches. I don't know if I can spring the pipe enough and still make good solder joints. As a backup, I have prepped two 45 elbows and a nipple to give more room, if needed. Obviously, I don't want to potentially compromise the joints.

JUGHNE

If you do not want to mess with the male adaptors, you could unsolder the fitting below it....leaving the stub in the adaptor. And then add couplings or your 45 ell to the old stub.

In any event I would saw thru the branch of the existing tee so the fittings could be rotated as unsoldered or unscrewed if you decide that route.

However the adaptor needs to be wrapped in wet rags to not melt that solder or affect the pipe dope thread connections.

SteamingatMohawk

Agreed, thanks. From the photo, you can see the male adapter is soldered in the run of the tee for the front and the street ell for the rear. The last thing I want is to create leaks.

Steamhead

nicholas bonham-carter said:

I think that the fact that they are twice as capacious as a Gorton #2 for the same price would be enough technical information for anyone to see their benefit.

Unfortunately, the Big Mouths don't have floats built into them, so they won't close if water rises too high in the system.

SteamingatMohawk

Today, I finally tried to separate the two main vents. I was not successful. If you look at the picture showing the arrangement, my plan was to cut the street elbow and using a pipe wrench, unscrew the elbow, very short piece of tubing and the male adapter to the black iron tee. I was unable, even with a two foot cheater to loosen the male adapter from the black iron tee. Yes, I was turning the pipe wrench the correct direction. My grandkids were taught righty-tighty, lefty-loosey years ago.

Also, I tried to unsweat the street elbow from the nipple/male adapter using MAPP gas and I could not get the solder to yield to pulling/twisting the elbow and allow me to remove the elbow.

Because of the limited time available with no heat in the apartments and having two of these fittings to destructively remove, I backpedaled and reattached the copper tee and street elbow. Since I could not sweat anything, I dreamed up another way to hopefully make the system safe and secure.

This is one for the record books. Read on.

I could not use a 1-1/4 coupling between the tee and elbow and did not find either a 1-1/2 copper coupling or black iron nipple I was trying to slip over both the tee and elbow at the blue store. Instead, I was able to fit a 1 inch coupling inside the street elbow and inside the tee (including the remnant of the street elbow still inside the tee). I used JB Weld good for the condensate temperature to hold the three pieces in place and hopefully provide sufficient strength to not fail. I used ratchet straps to keep the piping aligned. As this is written, the JB Weld is curing for the 4-6 hour time, then I will restart the boiler and inspect.

I realize this is somewhat out of the ordinary, which is why I didn't want to get into it in the first place. My current plan is if I can't find a reasonably sure way of removing the adapter from the black iron tee or unsweat the fittings, I will wait until the heating season is over and have all summer to get the job done.

Interestingly, yesterday, when I left the house all 4 apartments were at 70 degrees, so I'm pretty close to balancing and probably can wait till later to repipe the returns without impacting the tenants.

I don't have access to acetylene. Any suggestions?

JUGHNE

You might be able to rent a "B" tank with reg, hose and medium to large torch tip.
This is an air/acetylene set up, user friendly in that it will not melt copper or blow thru it. But still possible to over heat flux and fittings.
It will easily soft solder 1 1/2" copper.

SteamingatMohawk

Thanks for the tip.

SteamingatMohawk

I have been unable to find a rental "B" tank unit, but I came across a MAP/Pro or propane "Max heat torch" by one of the companies that sells this kind of equipment. It is advertised:

"Ultra swirl flame provides maximum heat output for large diameter soldering, brazing, heat treating and light welding ".

Does anyone have any experience with using this on 1-1/4" copper?

The torch is under $50, which is less than paying a heating company for an hour of work, so it's cost effective if it works. I like spending money on tools versus paying someone (assuming I am capable of doing the work). I have to do less than a dozen joints and can't justify $300 for air/acetylene or for oxygen/MAP/Pro outfit, which according to comments seems to go through cylinders in a very short time.

ethicalpaul

From the description it seems exactly what you are looking for, no? (large diameter soldering)

SteamingatMohawk

Yes, it does. But one never knows until actually using the merchandise whether the manufacturer's statement is fact or fiction. I have found the torches in both the Orange and Blue stores.

I wish someone (I respect) with first hand experience could provide a factual assessment. I have learned to be wary of comments on the internet, some are so stupid the people have no business using the things they bought and are commenting on. At the other end, many are very credible.

At this point, with a large snowstorm coming this weekend, I am not going to make any changes and depending on how well the system works in its current configuration (main vents where they are for at least 20 years) I am not inclined to rip anything apart until the summer. There are 5 joints within an inch of the floor and based on stuff I have read about sweating larger copper, I anticipate somewhat of a challenge in being successful on the first attempt.

All that being said, one of my tenants (I tell them they are my eyes, ears, nose and throat because I don't live there) has reported some apparent water hammer, which may have something to do with how I put the tee and street elbow back together.

JUGHNE

I have a "TurboTorch" ST-3.
The tip is 1/2" diameter.
I got this 35 years ago. Numbers may have changed since.
But with Mapp gas is would easily soft solder 1 1/4" copper.

Unsoldering those fittings can be challenging, you have to keep the heat evenly applied and rotate the fitting constantly as it is unsoldered. Without squeezing and distorting any of it.
Then cleaning out the fitting is next.

You might just figure on new fittings for all of it if time is of any essence.

SteamingatMohawk

Thanks, I do have new fittings, but will attach some to existing copper. I Googled it and it's still available.

Interestingly, with my patch job to recover from not being able to do the replacement, I now seem to have either water hammer or noise from thermal expansion and contraction of the piping when the boiler operates. If it's water hammer would it occur when the system cools down as well as when it heats up? My intuition (however flawed, says no)?

SteamingatMohawk

Next question. There have been comments about the solder and flux to use on larger pipe/fittings. Can whoever made the recommendations please restate them for me? Thanks in advance.

SteamingatMohawk

Regarding the noise I mentioned, it turns out one of the pipe hangers had come off the nail attaching it to a joist. When I noticed it, I had no idea if it came loose in the last few days, weeks, months or years, so I left it alone. After I was informed of the noise, I put a level on the return pipe and it was very slightly pitched uphill to the main vent, collecting water. When I reattached the hanger, the pitch was perfect and the noise stopped. Science triumphs again.