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Will this work as correct P/S piping

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bob eck
bob eck Member Posts: 930
Looks like this contractor used the Caleffi ball valve with 1” copper branches.
Hot Rod did you recently say that the ball valve in this causes the pipes to be farther apart because of the flow restriction.
Will that effect the way this system operates?
Mike

Comments

  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited November 2018
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    The more pipe and/or restriction between the closely spaced tees lessens the degree of separation.
    Steve Minnich
    Gordy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,505
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    Any pressure drop between the tees will encourage flow to the secondaries. So depending on how many GPM and what exactly is between the tees?? Impossible to get to 0 pressure drop, even 1" of tube has pressure drop at some gpm.

    Checks and or traps on the secondaries can deal with most "ghost" flow caused by excessive pressure drop between the tees. But it is simple enough to close nipple them.

    A standard 1" ball valve is about 4' EL. Full port probably 1/2 that maybe a bit less EL. So a ball valve between the tees is the same as having the tees about 2-4 feet apart.

    I've never seen the value of a valve between them. Easy enough with Webstone valves to provide good purge on secondaries.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    I agree, I dont understand why some guys want to put a ball valve between T's. Purging isn't that hard. The valley valve really serves no purpose other than adding time and money to the install.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • bob eck
    bob eck Member Posts: 930
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    Hot Rod does Caleffi make this fitting with out the ball valve in it so it could be used for true p/s piping?
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,244
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    The full-port valve between the tees allows the option of forcing flow through the secondary loop via the boiler pump(s) in the event of main system pump failure. When you find yourself in the system-pump-down situation, you realize that it was the Plumbing Gods themselves that decided to put that extra ball valve there.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
    IronmanSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,400
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    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    SeanBeansRich_49JohnNY
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,505
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    bob eck_2 said:

    Hot Rod does Caleffi make this fitting with out the ball valve in it so it could be used for true p/s piping?

    We do not make a valve like that.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,505
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    JohnNY said:

    The full-port valve between the tees allows the option of forcing flow through the secondary loop via the boiler pump(s) in the event of main system pump failure. When you find yourself in the system-pump-down situation, you realize that it was the Plumbing Gods themselves that decided to put that extra ball valve there.

    In some cases that might be possible, in a series P/S loop like this the loop pump would be a high flow very low head, a hard pump to source by the way. So depending on what the secondary loop is, pipe size and emitter, it may not have enough fizz to provide much circulation? If the secondary was a bunch of pex loops the primary or boiler pump, if properly sized, probably not going to do much and the rest of the loop may see reduced flow. But in an emergency, good to have options.

    Meanwhile 99% of the time it is adding pressure drop between each set of tees.

    Inexperienced troubleshooters may be tempted to shut off all the valves, not understanding how PS works, lots of guys scratch their heads when looking at closely spaced tees for the first time.

    On critical application piping, engineers often have a second parallel pump piped in, valved off ready to come online in the event of a failed one.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    How much time does it take to replace a pump? I don't need a plumbing god for that.
    Steve Minnich
    Gordy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,505
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    How much time does it take to replace a pump? I don't need a plumbing god for that.

    Time to start thinking beyond d primary secondary anyways. Horse and buggy technology :)

    A top brand separator will do a better job of all 4 functions that modern hydronics should have:
    hydraulic separation, micro bubble air, dirt and magnetic particle removal. No to forget labor and component cost savings, and an insulated shell in some cases.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,452
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    I have used them a number of times. They make a quick clean install on smaller systems. Especially on smaller combi boilers.
    I certainly agree that on larger systems a Hydosep is a better way to go.
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    @hot rod_7 - Agreed. It’s been a while since I used tees. Mostly separators and, when needed, buffer tanks.
    Steve Minnich
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,505
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    Separators give you a bit of buffer also, some seps hold more water than the boilers these days :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,452
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    hot rod_7 said:

    Separators give you a bit of buffer also, some seps hold more water than the boilers these days :)

    Especially those 6 gallon homemade ones! :D
  • bob eck
    bob eck Member Posts: 930
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    Like Hot Rod said using the Caleffi 4 in 1 does Hydronic separation + air removal +dirt elimination + magnetic dirt elimination. Using the Caleffi 4 in 1 takes the place of P/S piping kit + air eliminator + magnetic dirt removal unit. Less fittings to install and less time (labor).
    The wholesaler needs to educate their employees, outside sales, inside sales and counter sales so these people can educate the contractor that is buying the condensing combi boiler or condensing boiler only so they understand why they should be using the Caleffi 4 in 1 there is no good reason not to be using it.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,400
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    Like this one! :D
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    STEVEusaPALe John