Spirovent VS Amtrol air purger ?

Rick143

I just did exactly what was recommended by DZoro and Hot Rod by "Just moving the expansion tank location" from the feed and before the zone valves to the return just above the pump. These are clear pics of how my system is "currently set up." I have relocated the tank "back to where it was" and had to use a few fittings to get it back there, as the newly added location was now in the way.
"Currently and now back to the way it was " The pump is pumping down into the boiler and is connected to it, The feed on the rear is pumping up to the Spirovent, & Expansion tank then to all 3 zone valves. All I did was add the new tank location to just above the pump near the boiler, you can still see the added pipe with shut off there. I hope I have provided enough details and pictures to help me.

Rick143

I know why the boiler pressure climbed so high after the pump shut down and zone valve closed with new Tank location...

The pump has a check valve, so the boiler was never Seeing the tank for expansion as it was out of the loop installing it in that location, Basically The tank was isolated from the boiler when everything was closed.

Tinman

On the volute of the pump, there's an arrow on the casting. Take a picture of it, and post it. Sure looks like your pump flow is heading north when it should be heading south.

Tinman

Do this and your life will change forever.

Rick143

Stephen Minnich said:

On the volute of the pump, there's an arrow on the casting. Take a picture of it, and post it. Sure looks like your pump flow is heading north when it should be heading south.

Hi Stephen, The arrow is pointing down on the pump as seen in the first picture.

The second picture is what I just added. I put a canister vent on the 90 return above the pump to help with the air. I illustrated the flow with the arrows.

Rick143

My system is going in the direction your drawing suggests as seen in the second picture.

Tinman

Is this picture a correct representation? If so, you’re pumping right at the tank.

My first sketch is your best bet. Whatever amount of work it takes will be worth it.

I didn’t reread the entire thread. Have you tried closing the water fill completely?

SuperJ

EDIT: I never read the second page before I posted. @Rick143 beat me to it.

I wonder if the pump has a built in check valve (it's an option with grundfos pumps). If the zone valves are closed and the heat source is between the check and zone valves, I can see how pressure could build as the system heats. You can prove this theory by running it with at least one zone valve locked open.

The check valve is easily removable if you can isolate the pump at the flanges it's just inserted into the outlet of the pump. If you aren't zoned out with pumps, I don't think you need the check installed.

If you move your pump so the order is boiler outlet, tank/mu/airsep, then pump you can keep the check. Since it looks like your already changing your pipe, you really should set it up like @Stephen Minnich says or hire someone to do it. You will be playing with air vents forever unless you do it right. The spirovent you bought is a fine product, you don't need to waste time and money on more air removal parts for now, just get what you have installed properly.

Also, are you sure those yellow handled ball valves are for water, they look like gas ball valves too me.

Tinman

If that’s the case, yank it out. Zone valves on the supply pipes will do the trick.

Rick143

Stephen Minnich said:

If that’s the case, yank it out. Zone valves on the supply pipes will do the trick.

Yes the pump says there is a check valve on it. So if I take out the check valve on the pump.. This will do what for me in my current configuration ?

SuperJ

It will let the pressure equalize thru the pump, if you trap pressure between the check and zone valves, the pump may not be able to overcome it to open the check valve. The check valve is a dangerous item right now. You really only need check valves in parallel pump arrangements (or occasionally to reduce thermo siphoning).

You need to remove the check and move the tank/makeup water back to the new position you created (on the suction/inlet side of the pump), at least it will move the point of no pressure change to your inlet side of the pump. I would install a pressure gauge on the outlet of your makeup/at the tank. Keep in mind it's still a bit of a stopgap until you do a true "pumping away" setup as suggested by others. Once you're setup properly, the combination of heat and lower pressure at the air-separator will maximize its ability to remove air.

With the stopgap, your system pressure at the boiler will change depending on if the pump is running and how many valves are open, but once you move everything to the outlet side of the boiler the pressure will remain pretty constant at the boiler. Deadheaded your pump will add about 15fthd/6psi (on low speed), to your static system pressure.
This will drop as the flow increases, see the chart.



What sort of setup are you using to combine your zones and run the pump? You need to make sure you don't deadhead the pump against closed valves.

Tinman

The check valve is there to prevent gravity flow during off cycles. It's not needed because you have zone valves on the supply pipes which will stop any of that thermal migration.

Tinman

@SuperJ - But...if the zone valves are wired properly, each will open fully before the pump is energized.

SuperJ

Stephen Minnich said:

@SuperJ - But...if the zone valves are wired properly, each will open fully before the pump is energized.

Agree, that's why I asked him about his zone control strategy.

Tinman

It would help, I suppose, if I read posts entirely. : )

SuperJ

In your defense I edited it a couple times.

Rick143

Yes zone comes open first, Then pump will engage, I have 3 zones on the manifold and 1 pump at the boiler. I am in the prosses of removing the check valve but cant get it out LOL

Tinman

Needle nose for the first part. Flat blade screwdriver as a wedge for any remaining white plastic.

Rick143

I sure hope this is not needed in my system as there will be no check valve at all with this removed. For now I am going to keep the configuration the way it is till I can get time to relocate the Pump. You guys sure I should remove it ?? LOL

Tinman

When you're zone valves are closed, THEY ARE your check valves. I'm absolutely certain.

SuperJ

Yup, no need for it. The valves handle preventing thermo-siphoning, and there is no parallel flow path that needs protection from backfeeding/shortcycling.

If your system had zone pumps instead of valves, those ones would need check valves.

Rick143

Ok guys check valve is out and purging all 3 zones now.. Im wondering if that darn check valve was causing the big surge sound when the zone valve would open ever single time, Sometimes it was a violent bang... We will soon find out. Thanks for the help guys.

SuperJ

Ok, Good or bad news keep us posted.

Rick143

What speed should the pump be set at ? I have it on Low now but it was on Med.

SuperJ

Open a single zone valve, and monitor the temperature delta across your boiler. If the temperature delta gets to high you need to speed up the pump, if the delta is low you could slow it down a notch. Do this with your smallest zone running so it's a worst case scenario. With more valves open the flow will only go up reducing the delta further.

SuperTech

I apologise for my remarks earlier in the thread. I thought you relocated the circ, not just the tank.

It sure sounds like you have the problem solved. Don't stop yet! If you move the circ it gives you the opportunity upgrade it. The Grundfos Alpha would give you almost the perfect amount of flow regardless of temperature of the boiler and how many zone valves are open.

Check out an upgrade called outdoor reset to help save fuel as well. Cheers!

Rick143

UPDATE : Ok, So far overnight ... after removing the check valve in the pump and setting the speed to low, I don't get that big slamming and banging sound when a zone would open. I no longer get that river flowing sound for the first few minutes either. It seems as if 95% of the air is out of the system both at the boiler and in the system.... So far.. I think I will just leave everything AS IS for now LOL No sense in relocating the pump if Im not having the issues I was having anymore. This is only day one, so fingers crossed it stays this way !



So the check valve could very well have been my main issue all along or at least a large part of it, The things I added like the Spirovent I would say were helpful also and a big upgrade to more modern tech.

I just want to thank everybody involved on here that took the time to help me and had patience working with me on this, This is a great community of VERY Knowledgeable people !

Rick143

SuperJ said:

Open a single zone valve, and monitor the temperature delta across your boiler. If the temperature delta gets to high you need to speed up the pump, if the delta is low you could slow it down a notch. Do this with your smallest zone running so it's a worst case scenario. With more valves open the flow will only go up reducing the delta further.

Temp at the zone valve and the return seemed the same by touch with pump on low, I have the boiler temp set to 180 so those pipes were very hot lol