Spirovent VS Amtrol air purger ?

Rick143

Hey guys, Im still having an issue trying to get all the air out of my system. I have the Amtrol air purger scoop on my system and was wondering if I go with a Spirovent Jr. would this be a better choice ?

Thanks.

GroundUp

What is your system? Pics?

Rick143

Just a standard residential boiler with 3 zones, You can see pics from my other post Here >> https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/167078/water-surge-sound-when-pump-kicks-on/p1?new=1

GroundUp

Perhaps you could ask this question on that thread, so that those involved may offer constructive criticism. Typically a scoop does just fine on this type of system, but I suppose a Spirovent type eliminator couldn't hurt. Hard to pinpoint the issue without physically standing there, but it sounds to me like a faulty scoop or bad vent if you're allowing it time to bleed. This doesn't just bleed in 5 minutes of circulating, sometimes it will take days to get every bubble out

HVACNUT

Those pics dont clearly show the near boiler piping very well.
From those pics I wouldn't recommend a direct swap to a Spirovent. Dont get me wrong, its superior to what's there.
If your gonna do it, jump in with both feet.
Repipe the supply in black pipe. Go to copper down stream of the Spirovent and your newly relocated circulator, pumping away. Then pick up your zone valve manifold.
Be rid of those valves on the split returns. Use ball valves to isolate each return so you can purge properly.
You can also move the purge station to the supply between the boiler outlet and the Spirovent to purge through the boiler.
What air? I dont hear nuthin'.

hot_rod

If you want it right, it needs some repiping and component upgrades.

Here are examples best practices for single pump zone valved systems.

With 3 zones or less, single speed circuit can work.

Four or more zone valves, fixed speed circ really need a differential bypass valve included.

Better yet a Delta P circulator with zone valves.
isolation and purge valves, maybe Webstone valves on each return.

A micro bubble type purger, Caleffi Spiro, B&G many choices. Use that cast iron purger for a boat anchor, no place for it in todays high performance systems

Rick143

Well I just removed the Amtrol air purge and replaced it with a Spirovent Jr. Lets hope this resolves my air problem !!! Should I purge all 3 zones again or will this do the job ? Also, if I purge a zone does this Spirovent filter the incoming water of air ?

Ironman

Obviously, it can only purge the air that passes into it. It is a Micro Bubble Resorber (MBR).

If any of the loops are air bound, they will need purging.

Rick143

The zones weren't air bound, but I could hear it traveling in the pipes. I was just wondering where the water feed that goes in under the Spirovent, if it would grab some of the air when purging " Newly added air from supply ".

Zman

Did you replace the air separator and not follow the advice (from the other thread) to move the expansion tank to the other side of the circulator while you where at it?

Your problem is not and never has been the type of separator. If you pump away from the expansion tank your air problems will be solved. The separator does not have to move, just move the tank

Rick143

It FIXED it !!! The Spirovent all by it self without purging removed all the problem air !!! My system is quiet as can be YEAH !!!

Rick143

Well so much for that... In the middle of the night I started hearing water flowing through the pipes in all the zones again !!!! When the zone turns on It starts out with the loud water sound like im "filling the zone", then it quiets down. Why would this be all fine for most of the night then go back to this ??? I don't get it....

neilc

kuz you're not pumping away,
when everyone here tells you this, you must believe.
every time your circ starts you suck a little air back in thru the vents,
pump away.

Rick143

I do believe, but it is a very big job and very costly to relocate the pump as that would mean redoing and locating the zone valve trunk. Where are you saying this is sucking "In" air, I only have the Spirovent in the system.

I never had any of these issues till the new boiler got installed so I don't know how all of a sudden its the location of the pump if it worked fine before ??

Thanks for the help so far guys, This is a very informative site I do appreciate it.

hot_rod

If you have tried everything else...

If the Spiro slides 10" to the left, plenty of room for the circulator to move. A delta P type, your choice of brands, plug it in and walk away.

You could even leave the old circulator in place, if it is too much of a hassle to repipe?
Remove the wiring of course.

Rick143

hot rod said:

If you have tried everything else...

If the Spiro slides 10" to the left, plenty of room for the circulator to move. A delta P type, your choice of brands, plug it in and walk away.

You could even leave the old circulator in place, if it is too much of a hassle to repipe?
Remove the wiring of course.

Thanks for the help, I see what you mean but its only 8" from the 90 to the Spirovent. In order to give me the room I need without relocating the zone valve trunk, I would have to change the direction of the 1 1/4 supply up from the boiler with a 22 to get my distance and then 22 up to the 90 ? I have a pic of what I mean.

DZoro

You have a boiler drain just above your pump. Take it out put a tee in, put the tank there and replace the drain back in the other side of the tee. P.S. A valve above the tank is nice to have for future tank replacements.

Rick143

DZoro said:

You have a boiler drain just above your pump. Take it out put a tee in, put the tank there and replace the drain back in the other side of the tee. P.S. A valve above the tank is nice to have for future tank replacements.

Relocating the tank to the purge valve location helps in what way ? Also doing as Hot Rod recommended along with this ? I don't want to get confused as to the proper direction I need to go with.

I have one other thought.. Is it possible that the new Boiler it self is bad and sucking in air ? Because when its running and getting up to temp it almost sounds like a tea pot lightly whistling as if its leaking out air.. Its not loud but I notice it.. But if that was happening then wouldn't there be water leaking also ? Im just trying to think of everything before I jump into this big relocation and added expense...

hot_rod

Pick the lesser of two evils:

Leave the tank where it is, squeeze the circulator in between the tank and zone valves. I'm pretty sure there is room to do that.

Or remove the tank from it's current location and move it down to the inlet side of where the circulator is now.

In either case you will be "pumping away" your air problems.

You were 2/3 of the way to the best fix when you added the Spiro

Rick143

Ok... So if I remove the purge valve above the pump on the return and add the tee like DZoro suggested and relocate the tank there " Installed upside down I would assume.. This way seems easier and less labor and cost.. and you are saying leave the pump where it is and this will achive the same results as relocating the pump to the supply in front of the Spirovent ? Im trying to absorb all this in best I can so Im confident with my next move.

DZoro

I wouldn't mount the tank upside down. A nipple to extend it out so it misses the valve or take the handle off the red valve. You can leave the fill where it is at.

Rick143

Ok, so this design will be considered "Pumping away " from the expansion tank and achieve the desired flow/balanced pressure to eliminate my problems ? I am making a parts list and will try to get this done tomorrow. Thanks for the help and wish me luck !!

hot_rod

Here is another option, and parts list.

Get a 3/4 x 1/2 X 3/4 tee and a 3/4 X 2 nipple.

A 1/2 ball valve if you want a tank isolation, remove handle after opening.

Some perforated plumbers tape to hang the tank, which will be horizontal.

While the tank is off the system, check the pre charge. Set it to 12 psi, and fill the system to 12 psi.

Rick143

hot rod said:

Here is another option, and parts list.

Get a 3/4 x 1/2 X 3/4 tee and a 3/4 X 2 nipple.

A 1/2 ball valve if you want a tank isolation, remove handle after opening.

Some perforated plumbers tape to hang the tank, which will be horizontal.

While the tank is off the system, check the pre charge. Set it to 12 psi, and fill the system to 12 psi.

So you are saying I could hang the tank sideways ? I may just cut into the 1 1/4 and relocate the current Tee higher up to allow me room to operate the shut off above the pump.

neilc

you won't be disappointed.

add to your parts list some strapping to support the tank at its new location.
you don't want it just dangling from the pipes and nipples,
(or you could get disappointed)

neilc

woops,
what Hot Rod said , , ,

duffy_4

https://youtu.be/tZRuqiQkukE
Check out this video to see what’s happening in your system as it’s currently piped and why you have to move exp tank and/or circulator

Rick143

Ok guys I did everything you said, but now Im in a panic because the boiler pressure jumps a good 5-10 LBS when the pump kicks on !!!! Why is this happening ?? Please Help !! Pic below of what I did.

SuperTech

> @Rick143 said:
> Ok guys I did everything you said, but now Im in a panic because the boiler pressure jumps a good 5-10 LBS when the pump kicks on !!!! Why is this happening ?? Please Help !! Pic below of what I did.

I can't see the circulator, is it pumping in the right direction? The arrow on it should go in the same direction as the water flow.

Does it do this with the water supply shut off to the boiler as well?

Rick143

Ok things went from bad to WORSE !! I went back down to check on it and when the pump shut off the boiler pressure gauge started climbing fast to 30 lbs !!! so I shut everything down and drain some pressure off before it could blow the relief. Im at my wits end here, so I put everything back the way it was......

Rick143

SuperTech said:

> @Rick143 said:

> Ok guys I did everything you said, but now Im in a panic because the boiler pressure jumps a good 5-10 LBS when the pump kicks on !!!! Why is this happening ?? Please Help !! Pic below of what I did.



I can't see the circulator, is it pumping in the right direction? The arrow on it should go in the same direction as the water flow.



Does it do this with the water supply shut off to the boiler as well?

Pump is pumping down to the boiler on that 1 1/4 line where I relocated the expansion tank, Its just below the red valve handle in the pic.

JUGHNE

So you did not flip the pump, it's arrow is pointing at the boiler?
You do not have the manual fill lever up on the PRV (fill valve)?
Air charge in your tank?

Rick143

Check mark on everything... I never touched the pump all I did was relocate the tank as suggested by others. Seems as though with the pump shut down and zone valves shut, It sealed off the expansion tank from the boiler creating all that pressure Im guessing ??

duffy_4

Does pump have check valve in discharge?
I’d set pressure to 15 psi and close fill valve run system again

SuperTech

The arrow needs to be pointing away from the boiler if you are pumping away! Send pics, I believe you need to flip your circulator.

JUGHNE

Pump is on the return line at the bottom of the boiler....right?

SuperTech

> @JUGHNE said:
> Pump is on the return line at the bottom of the boiler....right?

It was before this thread started and the community convinced him to move the circ to the supply to help air Elimination.

The O.P must have forgot that this is called pumping AWAY not INTO the boiler.

This is why this type of work is best left to the pros.

Tinman

@SuperTech The boiler location? It's pumping away from the PONPC, the expansion tank. It sure sounds like the fill valve to me.

SuperTech

> @Stephen Minnich said:
> @SuperTech The boiler location? It's pumping away from the PONPC, the expansion tank. It sure sounds like the fill valve to me.

Yup it does. His comment about the circ pumping down into the boiler concerned me.

If it was a stuck open fast fill valve that could be identified or eliminated by temporarily turning off the water supply...it shouldn't just occur when the pump comes on.

Tinman

90% of residential pumps are on the return, pumping into the boiler. Most of those are little pumps and pumping right at the tank. Not once in that situation have I seen a gauge jump to 30.

Commercial application? Sure. You get a couple of Series 60 pumps pumping toward the tank and the relief valve is going to be popping all day long. That, I’ve seen a lot.

Tinman

Pumping away on the boiler supply is always the preferred way to go. Air problems and noise disappear right now.

My point is that a pressure increase from 12 to 30 with a small wet rotor pump pumping at the tank, unless the tank is waterlogged, is just something I've never experienced. That doesn't mean it has never happened. I think there'd have to be more going on than just that to make it happen.