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Flow regulation

cnmdesign
cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
edited October 2018 in Gas Heating
What is the better throttling valve, Ball, Gate or something else?

Thanks
Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
www.afinalsalute.com

Comments

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,001
    The "gate" in the valve should be completely open or closed.
    Somewhere in the middle and the gate will shake itself and wear out. Might work for a while, but eventually you find the gate disconnected and almost shut.....not fun to deal with.

    The ball valve has the solidly attached ball on a stem and will eventually become elongated from the water flow to the point that it will not move. But it will be fairly consistent in the size of the opening, unlike the gate valve.
    Best bet would not to rely upon the throttling valve to isolate the system 100% in the future if needed for repairs etc.
    cnmdesign
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,165
    Of the various commonly available valve geometries in larger sizes -- the ones typically used in plumbing and heating -- the best type for variable throttling is the globe valve. Depending on the thread on the stem, it can be regulated very closely. It does have the real disadvantage of rather high head loss, even fully open. Ball valves are the next best, with the advantage in the full port variety of no head loss when open. The ability for precise control isn't as good as a globe, since there is only a quarter turn from full open to closed (depending on thread, a globe may have anywhere from a few turns to tens of turns). A gate valve must never be used for throttling; it must be either fully open or fully seated.

    For higher pressure use, there are balanced globe valves which operate well under very high pressure differentials (hundreds to thousands of psi).

    For very exact and linear throttling, there are specialized valves with one element being tapered and the sealing element fitting around it -- commonly called needle valves (remarkably common needle valves were the valves in carburetors (remember them?) which controlled the flow of gas into and out of the float bowl)(in larger sizes, such as a 48 inch one I was looking at the other day, they are called cone valves)

    In older steam systems you may encounter valves such as the Hoffman No. 7 which look superficially like variations on the gate valve, but which are actually variations on ball valves in terms of operating principle.

    Which is more than you probably wanted to know...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    cnmdesignHVACNUTdelta TCanucker
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,371
    In general a globe valve as @Jamie hall mentioned.

    If it's hot or chilled or condenser water system "circuit setter" balancing valve are usually used. Triple duty valves (stop, check and balancing valve all in one valve) are used around pumps
    cnmdesign
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
    how accurate? A fixed or variable orifice balance valve is designed for accurate and reliable balance applications. You will need a delta P meter, attached to the PT ports, to set the flow

    PIC is a pressure independent type of balance valve, dynamic, which means it can adjust to varying flow conditions.

    But one of the most widely used balance valve is the B&G Circuit Setter, a ball valve style.

    Or a Caleffi Quicksetter🤔
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cnmdesign
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,283
    We use a lot of Tour & Anderson balancing valves for hydronic systems that work excellent, but the B&G circuit setter is a little more cost effective with the same performance IMO.
    cnmdesign
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited October 2018
    Thanks for the replies, getting the Caleffi Quicksetters.
    There is a Thrush on one loop and an unknown valve on the other, on the old system now. Should I cut them out or just adjust the Quicksetters around them? Had no problem in the past with balance even though they are froze solid.

    Thanks
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
    I'd remove the old valves if possible. Thanks for trying out the Quicksetter, bring one pics back.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cnmdesign
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited October 2018
    hot rod said:

    I'd remove the old valves if possible. Thanks for trying out the Quicksetter, bring one pics back.

    Installed the new boiler over from the old one. Added 12 equal feet of runner to connect it to the old loops. It was a balanced, single zone with two loops, short run over the garage and a longer run over the basement. What are the chances of it still working correctly connected to the Alpha2 without going through the expense or trouble of re-balancing?

    Thanks
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
    Start it up and feel or measure the temperature supply and return to each heat emitter. Plenty of residential systems running wild without any balancing function. If all the rooms heat adequately, away you go.

    Balance valves are a fine tuning device to assure each zone or heat emitter is working to it's designed condition.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cnmdesign
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited October 2018
    hot rod said:

    Start it up and feel or measure the temperature supply and return to each heat emitter. Plenty of residential systems running wild without any balancing function. If all the rooms heat adequately, away you go.

    Balance valves are a fine tuning device to assure each zone or heat emitter is working to it's designed condition.

    I have a top of the line system, no reason to 1/2 a**it now. Will be going with the Quicksetters.

    Question now is, I think you need 9 x Dia spacing from nearest fitting to QS. If so, can I put it on the return end just before the manifold or is the same spacing required on both sides of the QS? On the return end the QS will be upside down. Thanks
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,066
    The QS can be mounted in any position, upside down, inverted, at an angle. Good to have 5D from a fitting, maybe 8-10D from a pump discharge to get nice straight flow. It really depends on how fast or turbulent the flow is. If you are in the typical 2-4 fps range, no problem.

    Don't oversize the QS, buy the size close to the flow rate you want, at the mid or high end of the scale.

    For example don't install a 1", 3- 10 gpm version and try and crank it down to the lowest setting. Size them by flow rate not pipe size.

    Also flush the system well before you pull the ring the first time so you don't get crud inside the mechanism, which can cause the indicator mechanism to stick.

    The indicator can be removed to clean or replace if needed.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cnmdesign