Bed and Breakfast One Pipe Hydronic

Mike_Sheppard

My girls parents are looking into a bed and breakfast. I went with them today to look over the seven heat pump units and found the house has an old one-pipe hydronic system. Will be fun to play with this if they decide to revive it.

Really hope I get the opportunity to own an old house with a steam or hydronic system eventually.

Steamhead

Let me guess- the boiler is a National?

Mike_Sheppard

> @Steamhead said:
> Let me guess- the boiler is a National?

To be completely honest, I am not sure. It was completely enclosed by linen racks. Those pictures are from me reaching over and around it. They claim it is still operational but it looks like it’s been quite awhile since it’s run.

HVACNUT

Having a 40+ year obsolete stack relay, I'd say it's been a long time. Dry base too, or coal conversion? I'd pressure test it first. Actually I wouldn't even attempt using it. New boiler (zoned) or keep the heat pumps.

Mike_Sheppard

They’re probably going to stick with the heat pumps. I wouldn’t want to fire that thing up either.

Next problem is the heat pumps are 20 years old and R-22 units...

Steamhead

Shouldn't be an issue to test-run it, as long as you are right there to monitor it and shut it down if anything weird happens. Just go over everything, and I mean everything, before you fire it up. If it doesn't light off, you can shut it down before the stack relay does.

The burner is probably a Beckett AF- still a standard model. Though whoever installed it and kept the stack relay wasn't too bright. We see this from time to time, which is why we keep a couple junction boxes around that fit these burners.

Where is this place located?

Mike_Sheppard

@Steamhead it’s in Tappahannock, VA

Steamhead

Mike_Sheppard said:

@Steamhead it’s in Tappahannock, VA

Gas available?

Mike_Sheppard

> @Steamhead said:
> @Steamhead it’s in Tappahannock, VA
>
> Gas available?

They have a propane tank, but it only serves the fireplaces and range.

Steamhead

Ah. Well, if it gets real real cold there, oil should still be cheaper than the typical electric-resistance heat-pump backup to run. But not with that boiler, even if someone baffled it.

Mike_Sheppard

They actually have no heat other than the heat pumps. No furnaces and no heat strips. I guess they use the fireplaces if it gets too cold.

I doubt they’ll go for replacing the boiler but I’d love to do it if they decide to.

Steamhead

No backup? What do they use for a design outdoor temp?

Are the fireplaces vented?

Sounds like verifying that the HW system still works is a real good idea.

Mike_Sheppard

I looked at all the air handlers and they had no backup heat.

The propane was added to the fireplaces when the heat pumps were installed. I’m assuming that was the backup heat.

I agree. If they end up buying this I guess we’ll see how the winter goes.

Mike_Sheppard

I don’t see a primary control on the burner, wouldn’t they need the stack switch? I wonder how long the oil has been sitting in the tank... Should it be pumped out and replaced?

Steamhead

The oil should be OK, but make sure you start off with a clean filter. And watch what it looks like when you bleed the fuel unit. If it doesn't look right, fill a jerry can with diesel fuel and run the burner off that.

The junction box I mentioned is the one where a cad-cell primary would be mounted. It fastens to the chassis with two screws, right above the motor.

Ironman

They really should get the hydronic system going again. If it's gonna be a B&B, no one wants a cold room. Gas logs won't meet code for sleeping quarters.

A new boiler (gas or oil) with ODR and the needed ancillary parts will be a lot cheaper than replacing all those heat pumps - and a lot more comfortable.

Mike_Sheppard

> @Steamhead said:
> The oil should be OK, but make sure you start off with a clean filter. And watch what it looks like when you bleed the fuel unit. If it doesn't look right, fill a jerry can with diesel fuel and run the burner off that.
>
> The junction box I mentioned is the one where a cad-cell primary would be mounted. It fastens to the chassis with two screws, right above the motor.

Ah of course. I missed that. I stock all of that too, good idea.

Mike_Sheppard

> @Ironman said:
> They really should get the hydronic system going again. If it's gonna be a B&B, no one wants a cold room. Gas logs won't meet code for sleeping quarters.
>
> A new boiler (gas or oil) with ODR and the needed ancillary parts will be a lot cheaper than replacing all those heat pumps - and a lot more comfortable.

If they end up buying it I will do my best to convince them. The system itself looks to be in fine shape. All the radiators look good. All the radiator valves work too.

I will have fun doing load calcs and sizing

Mike_Sheppard

I’m not a residential guy. Most of the stuff I play with doesn’t fit in a house. Every now and then I come across a Carlin or Beckett at breweries, distilleries, etc.

What brand oil burners/boilers would you recommend?

Ironman

If it's oil, a 3 pass Buderus. Best cast iron made. I prefer using the Riello burner, but others like the Becket or Carlin.

Mike_Sheppard

> @Ironman said:
> If it's oil, a 3 pass Buderus. Best cast iron made. I prefer using the Riello burner, but others like the Becket or Carlin.

Can those work on a reset schedule with low water temps? If so that would be a good choice I think.

I’ve never worked on a Riello residential burner, I’ve heard people either hate them or love them. I hate the Riello commercial/industrial burners. A flame scanner goes bad and it takes a month to get a new one.

Ironman

The Buderus cast iron is actually flexible and take RWT as low as 104*. That works great with ODR.

RE Michel stocks the Buderus and the Riello burner already factory set for the boiler. They also have a Riello parts kit which the local branch should have or you can purchase it and carry it on your truck. The Riello is very easy to work on once you're familiar with it.

Buderus also has a control designed specifically for that boiler that does ODR, controls an indirect and will maintain a 104* minimum boiler temp for warm start. It's called a Logamatic 2107. A little pricey, but the Buderus rep guarantees it will give at least a 40% fuel savings over the old boiler. I've never been able to prove him wrong.

GBart

Oil like gasoline has a shelf life of 30 days before it starts to degrade.

Smell it, if it smells like turpentine it's toast, it'll burn but not too good, if it's at 1/2 or 1/4 I'd top it off first.

STEVEusaPA

You couldn't go wrong hiring Ironman (if he's interested) as a consultant (for starters). I know he's in Va, just don't know if it's in his area. And definitely if you need work performed.

Mike_Sheppard

I wouldn’t mind hiring him as a consultant. I would want to make sure I was doing this the best way possible. As far as install I’d like to do it myself. If I can’t do it I should probably turn in my masters licenses and quit my job. Lol

But again, they haven’t even purchased it yet. They may not even get it, and if they do they may not even want to mess with the boiler.

HVACNUT

> @Ironman said:
> The Riello is very easy to work on once you're familiar with it.
>
Yes it is. They just need to figure out if they're going to stick with the philip's head or torx.