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what does anyone know about American Standard Bayloam 103 residential condensor fan controller

in adjacent thread I had been seeking advice on balancing load and capacity chiller application for a residential 401A condensor and variable speed condensor fan, flo switch on the water side and low pressure cutout on the suction line are the first lines of defense i'm planning.

turned out to be more difficult than i hoped to find a variable/multi speed condensor fan motor, however I had local distributor recommend a Bayloam 103 kit which are fitted on various American Standard residential condensors to vary fan speed.

looking at the .pdf of the install, it looks like you essentially grab the feed wire to the motor not from the capcitor and run it through the control which is signaled by a liquid line temperature sensor and you can set your condensor output/evaporator approach temperature using dip switches.

just trying to figure out if there are any special characteristics appropriate to condensor motors these are running. not sure how it varies the speed or if it ramps fan up and then turns it on and off for micro seconds or what and whether it matters much if this is PSC or ECM motor and what the appropriate amperage limits might be.

The guy i'm dealing with at Torrice has retrofitted these and knows the field end and figures i'd be fine and i'm game to try this approach as it is just what i'm looking for, but he is a little hazy on how it actually works and what is spec limits are. And was not particularly successful getting to anyone in engineerings at American Standard, they would ring back to a Trane counter where the guys had told me to talk to an engineer and then they would sell me the thing. kind of circular.

I can probably back into amperage/horsepower limits by looking at the range of models for which it is approved and of course it doesn't really matter how it works (except to the extent that it might shorten motor life in some way although i'm willing to risk $150 dollar motor to try this out although if there is a better motor to pair with it than the standard PSC I'm also not against getting a different motor) So if anybody has messed around with one of these before and can offer any observations I would appreciate it.

thanks,

brian

Comments

  • hvacfreak2
    hvacfreak2 Member Posts: 500
    The Trane unit isn't bad I guess but one of these may offer more flexibility as well as a better value.

    icmcontrols.com/HEAD-PRESSURE-CONTROLS-Prodlist.html
    hvacfreak

    Mechanical Enthusiast

    Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV's

    Easyio FG20 Controller

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,823
    The BAYLOWAMB103 uses an Crydom SCR (datasheet, part # GN 84134310) to control the OFM. It's rated 48-600 volts 25 amps, so it should be good for just about anything you can throw at it.

    It can be set up for an auto adapt mode (if the outdoor air sensor is used IIRC) or the liquid line temp can be set manually from 70° to 112° in 6° steps.

    So far as I've seen, they're pretty reliable, although I did receive one that was missing the outdoor sensor.

    Some of the ICM parts linked to by @hvacfreak2 are capable of simultaneously controlling to two separate sensors (think dual circuit), either temp or pressure, and have an analog setpoint you dial in with a pot. Thy might be the only choice if you have more than one refrigerant circuit that share condenser fans

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 810
    ratio (et al): ok, so i went through a commercial engineer i know at Trane and he got me someone from American Standard. I got the basic operation of the Bayloam [don't know what the B is for but the rest is AccessorY LOw AMbient] 103. It's basically just an on off switch. It works by shutting the fan off and then picking it up while its coasting down so that some percentage of the time it is not exerting its full force. But these period is fairly close so you could observe it working but generally speaking the fan never comes to a stop so its not like repeated dead starts.

    My only concern is the engineer seemed to say that the program is aimed at really low ambient - like when you are having a big party in november and need air conditioning even though it is under 70 outside. He was not really clear how the unit reacts if I manually set a liquid line temp target but the temperature is above 70 outside. will it simply prioritize the liquid line temp or does it not begin to operate until ambient is 70 or below, e.g. from the literature: "The fan should run continuously for a minimum of 10 seconds after “Y” is applied. After 10 seconds the control may begin to cycle the fan if the ambient outdoor temperature is 70 deg. or below."

    can anyone from experience say that whether this applies to both manual and automatic modes? The engineer thought it did. In which case i'm back to the drawing board unless i can find the characteristics of the thermistor and find another one that would artificially recalibrate so that the control thinks it is 70 when its 90 or just put a permanent resister that thinks it is always under 70 because in theory then the control still reacts to liquid temp so if the liquid temp is up it will run fan continuously anyway . . .

    hvacfreak2: on the icm stuff. and to manually set my approach temp for the conditions at which i want it to start working am i reasoning correctly, the saturation temp for the condensor should be the differential with ambient at exit at extreme design condition , i.e. 95 degrees, with full fan operation so i'm figuring that at 15 degrees, i forget the design condensor split, if its a nice big condensor on like a 16 seer can you get a little closer?? anyway thats 110 which with 12 degrees of subcooling implies saturation temp of about 122 thsu looking for a little under 430 psi saturation pressure in the condensor . . .

    When i was concerned about whether the Bayloam 103 would actually operate at other than continuous on if ambient went above 70 the engineer recommended a johnson P66 which is a full frequency controller but it only has a PSI target range of 190 to 260 which would just cover my application with R-22.

    what pressure sensors and range of operation does the ICM stuff allow? I think i'm going to leave another high head tap in case i want to go with a pressure rather than temperature controller, although the temp controller seems pretty simple and plausibly effective although the motor control strategy is a little more rudimentary. what kind of motor control do the ICM's employ? And how do i know if a motor meets the "was intended to be speed controlled" design element.

    What I can't figure out in all this is why there isn't an ECM motor and controller to handle this stuff. seems like ready made for ECM approach. I'm not saying it would be cheap although if you had one motor style for many applications maybe it wouldn't be ridiculously expensive.

    keep those cards and letters coming. thanks much.

    brian
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,823
    There are ECM ODF motors available, Liebert for instance uses them, Mitsubishi (& probably others) on their VRF systems & modulating mini splits. I don't know of a generic option, except that a standard 3 phase motor with a small VFD might give you the kind of control you're after.
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,730
    It may not say it on the instruction sheet but it is best to have a ball bearing condenser motor with those kits.
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 810
    going to check the motor. the first go is amana ASX16 condensor. not sure the grade of motor supplied standard. meantime I weighed what thermistor or resistor to use on the Bayloam 103.

    so research indicates that the next standard available from the 10K ohm outdoor sensor supplied (not sure which standard curve American Standard picked) would be a 20K ohms which would signal 70 degrees to the control when its actually 99 out. that's a little higher than i wanted but if the control learns from there and targets a liquid line temp its probably OK although, ironically, because of a difference in the response curves between the 20,000 and 10K ohn sensors I might do just as well to add about 4000K of fixed resistance to the 10K and call it a [dog] day.

    keep those cods and letters coming.

    thanks

    brian
  • hvacfreak2
    hvacfreak2 Member Posts: 500
    I like the ICM because they will do full modulation or on / off for the cheaper motors. P-66 as stated is only a full range controller and they do have different models and pressure ranges ( I had to turn one into an on-off controller once using a big capacitor ,lol ). Flooded condenser mechanical controls are a better option for operating continuously in low ambient conditions , but like the VFD they start to get expensive. I would think that an accumulator is a requirement either way and I wouldn't lose sight on the oil return issue if pressures and temperatures get too low.
    hvacfreak

    Mechanical Enthusiast

    Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV's

    Easyio FG20 Controller

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 810
    freak (or can i just call you heave),

    got an ICM325HN on the way. the only thing I really would like to zone in on is how to figure out of the existing condenser motor is reliable for these controls. their engineer says any decent PSC motor should work.He emphasizes "heavy duty" rating and American made. I'm all for making HVAC great again, but I'm trying to figure out how to really look at the characteristics or specs of a motor to see if it is a good fit with this control, or look for a replacement motor (either to have on the shelf or to just prophylactically switch in) that is a workhorse with this setup (48 frame 1/6 horsepower 825 nameplate RPM)
  • hvacfreak2
    hvacfreak2 Member Posts: 500
    https://grainger.com/category/condenser-fan-motors/hvac-motors/motors/ecatalog/N-9y4


    Ball bearings for a start ( not available in the filter from what I could see ) , insulation class after that. At least all the specs are there for each item. If you get the name plate info from the existing motor you can find the detailed specs. The ICM does support sleeve bearing motors too so you might try that first just to see where you are at ( if that's what you have ).
    hvacfreak

    Mechanical Enthusiast

    Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV's

    Easyio FG20 Controller

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 810
    got it and I got an ICM325HN for first go. it comes with a liquid line temperature sensor for targeting and their tech says that is better on a small unit to give a little historesis, i.e. delayed response so you don't get short cycling and nuisance operating trips.

    here we go. its going together next week as soon as I decide between TXV and EXV.

    brian