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1950-60’s Norge gas stove

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This stove fits nicely into one of our apartments, but has a non functioning oven. The oven control knob turns on the secondary pilot, but the gas valve does not open. The thermocouple seems much slimmer than anything I have seen in equally old boilers, etc.
Any idea if such a part as the gas valve may have been used on an old furnace, etc, and thus be more cross referential from a bigger supply house?
One of the problems is that if the gas valve is removed, the gas must be off, and so no cooking while that piece is taken over to Johnstone supply to see if some gray haired counterman might recognize it.—NBC

Comments

  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
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    That is a Robertshaw Oven safety valve. Get me the information of the valve and I will cross reference it to a direct Robertshaw replacement. Some pictures of the oven control on the top of the stove along with a better picture of the oven pilot and burner setup and I can help you.
    kcopp
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    will do!
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,354
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    Hi, there is an ever shrinking number of independent appliance parts houses. When I have a strange question like yours, I go to Mack Stove, in Seaside, CA. I've known them for over forty years and they don't let me down. They might be able to help. Their number is 831-899-7278.
    Yours, Larry
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,935
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    I have a Norge that looks to be a bit newer than that one. I think Borg-Warner owned Norge at that time.

    Make sure you test that oven and the top burners for proper combustion and absence of carbon monoxide. When I got my first combustion analyzer that stove was the first thing I tested, and the oven was over 1000 PPM CO. A few adjustments brought it down to double digits. Combustion analyzers as we know them today didn't exist back then, which makes it even more important to test an older unit.

    BTW, @Tim McElwain was the one who taught me much of what I know about combustion. He's as good as it gets.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
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    Larry we have a similar place here in Rhode Island. They have stuff tucked away in there upstairs storage room that goes back to Columbus.
    kcopp
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
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    Not very helpful.

    First lets talk about how this system works. When you turn the oven on there is already a small pilot flame in the oven. The gas from the top burner manifold flows through the Oven Heat Control (temperature control) and increases the intensity of flame in the oven through the Oven Safety Valve. This more intense flame at the pilot will heat up the capillary bulb from the Oven Safety Valve. The capillary bulb is not a thermocouple but is filled with mercury. The increased flame at the pilot must heat the capillary bulb to 400 degrees in order for the mercury to exert pressure on the safety valve diaphragm which will then allow oven burner gas to flow which will then heat the oven. When the Oven Control at the manifold reaches set point temperature it will shut down and the pilot in the oven will revert to the small pilot flame and the Oven Safety Valve will close waiting for the oven to call and repeating the same cycle.

    Many times with these systems it just needs the orifice at the pilot in the oven to be cleaned. What happens is as the orifice gets partially clogged it can't sustain sufficient flame to get the capillary mercury to 400 degrees. So the first step before spending money on a new safety valve is clean the pilot orifice. Then try the oven and see if it works if it does your done problem solved. If not a safety valve is needed.

    I need real clear pictures of the valve in the oven so I can get the numbers off the valve or if you can read them then send them to me.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
    edited August 2018
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    Much better. The number on the side of the Robertshaw MSA safety valve is a factory model number yours is Z-77212- 12. That number can be cross referenced by your local Robertshaw controls distributor and will give you the exact replacement. The valve is an MSA valve and will be one of four possibilites.

    MSA 4060-001
    MSA 4060-005
    MSA 4060-008

    or MSA 4060-805

    I need a picture of the pilot so I can see the capillary bulb as that is one of the differences between valves.
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    Thanks, I will double check.
    I believe there to be two pilots-one fed from the valve, which is always on, and secondary one, fed from the top side control with temperature knob, which goes on when the knob is turned.
    The secondary pilot does seem to light up and make the sensing tip glow, but I will give the pilot tubing and orifice a good cleaning.—NBC
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    I see that a replacement valve comes with a new mercury bulb.
    Does this press on a button at the point of connection to the valve, as the temperature rises?
    I suppose debris could be lodged in there, preventing the small amount of movement needed to operate the valve.
    I wouldn’t normally spend so much time on this, were it not for the perfect match between the stainless steel stove top, and the 1920’s stainless steel countertops, next to the stove.
    If I replace this, will I get 60 years out of the new one-(when I am 130?).—NBC
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,854
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    Anything new will be expensive, and pretty but built very poorly.

    You may get 10-20 years out of it, if you're lucky. Our $1200 2011 Kitchenaid stove has the control panel slowly sliding down because the glue gets soft when the oven is on.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
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    Nicholas I have found that locally here in RI Automatic Heating can get the correct oven valve for you. It is a Robertshaw MSA Safety Valve part number 4060-008. There number is 401-521-8877 ask for Todd and give him my name and he can help you out. If you need to talk to me call 401-437-0557.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
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    I would not encourage taking an oven safety valve apart.
    lchmb
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
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    Nicholas are you all set?
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    First I am going to see what can be done with cleaning the pilot light assembly, and making sure the mercury bulb has not slipped downwards in its holder, (the tip glows in the secondary pilot, about a 16th of an inch).
    Then if no go, replacement. In the summer, we keep oven use to a minimum, because of the heat.
    One of the nice things about this stove, besides the stainless top, is it’s independance from electrical power. It does have a timer on it to turn on and off the oven, but we never use that feature. All the new stoves appear to need power to operate.
    When we first came back to live in the house, in the early 70’s the boiler failed, and we were without heat in the house, 55 rads!). The temperature was in the - digits, for 10 days. We kept the stoves on in all 7 Apt’s, and taps dribbling, toilets running, etc, and only lost one radiator to freezing. Ice built up on the windows a half inch thick!
    Not knowing better, we put our baby bassinet on the open door of the oven, (of the predecessor Detroit Jewell, 1922), for a few hours a day.
    Luckily, my daughter was unaffected by CO, but the oven door never closed properly after that.
    There was no oven pilot on the old stove, and I remember as a child waiting too long to light the match and losing arm hair as the flame whooshed out of the oven!—NBC
    Pictures of the Detroit Jewell will follow, as it is still stored in the basement, like so many other things!
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    When I returned from a long trip away, and determined to make the oven work, I went to the local Johnstone supply (for something else).
    I gave them the part number (thanks to Tim!), for the oven gas valve, and after checking 3 different lists of inventory, they found 2 in inventory in their other branch several hundred miles away. They gave me a nice discount as well!
    2 days later, I have it, and am ready to make the switch. How far should the tip of the mercury bulb extend into the secondary pilot flame?—NBC
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,628
    edited October 2018
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    The pilot should determine that as it will have a stop. When inserting do not go past the stop. You will know if you got it right when the pilot is lit the tip should glow.