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Seen many of yours. Time to show you mine. NBP hilarity.
FinishGuy
Member Posts: 31
Just so you know...
I moved in with my future wife-to-be 14 winters back. First thing my girl does is teach me how to weekly clear the LWCO and about watching the water level and then tell me ‘it’s your task now, dear’! This was my first experience with steam heat. I am an evangelist now.
While learning about fixing radiator vents I also came to know water hammer and associated noises were not good. At some point I got hold of one of Dan H’s books and after a couple of heating seasons’ tweaking I made them go away. High Fives all round.
To my chagrin the occasional wandering tea kettle sounds of the radiator vents remain. Though I find them pleasant I came to understand they are symptomatic of wet steam. Yes, you guessed and I eventually learned, it is caused by poor NBP. Patience, please, while I tell my story.
5 winters back I received notice from the gas company that my usage stood out when compared to the surrounding neighbors. Unexpectedly nice of them. This was significant given there are 6 almost identical units (3 two-family houses in a row, same builder) all using steam. Yes, there are variables - attic above or basement below, insulated walls or not, new verses old windows, etc. but it was clear we were/are spending more. They gave me a years worth of usage data on each home and the heating spike of ours was obvious.
Having to find an explanation and a potential fix lead me to discover this cool web site. Hats off to all you fine tradesfolk here as well the interested amatures. This is a most excellent and interesting resource.
What I learned then was wet steam increases fuel consumption as do un-insulated pipes and poor main venting. The venting I took care of, which speeded up the whole heat rising process. More high fives as comfort makes the missus happy. The steam main and return remain un-insulated, though. I know, low hanging fruit, but the initial expense of insulating the pipes is a comparatively large budget outlay in a household with a chronicly ill member. Ticks are evil. It required the intervening years to bring the other party round. FYI, I had my order entered into a vender’s shopping cart, about to commit, and was prepping the basement when I broke my right fibula at the ankle walking the dog mid January. Black ice bummer!
I am aware of the role of the pressuretrol and the importance of its settings. Rest assured mine is down as low as possible with a Honeywell 401 for the past 5 winters now. It still runs forever in the morning on the chilly starts, like awhile back and 6 degrees F, but that makes sense given the boilers ‘working state’, ie. wet steam and nude main & runouts & return. My boiler never reaches cutout because the thermostat never cycles it on for long enough to get there. I forget which ‘anticipation’ setting is being used on the thermo. Works well by me during the day. Except for the overnight setback (getting close to agreement with the missus on what really works best) and the fact that the place is a mite leaky all in all pretty nice heating. A convert, as I said.
Twice in the past 4 years I have come close to reworking my NBP. I have a buddy, an elevator mechanic, who is willing to help me get a pipe order together for the local supply house to cut and thread. The work itself I felt capable of accomplishing and my wet leg (which has to be junked up given no maintenance and the telltale at the glass sight of condensates slow return to the boiler) needs some attention - I have an epoxy repaired pinhole leak at my Hartford Loop close nipple. Go J-B Weld! What stopped me was reading discussions and recommendations about attempting such work. Most alarming, given I had sawzall in hand at one point, were the admonishments not to mess with an old boiler. Upon research, I discovered that my boiler has a born on date of 1980! Just shy of 40 years. I could have created a mess. I am an amature at this afterall. No high fives for that sort of chaos.
About that yearly maintenance... No, I never did attempt clearing the wet leg. Was not sure how to contain the mess, what to actually do, was it dire, etc. What I have done for maintenance is keep the pigtail cleared, keep the LWCO clean, and keep the burner flame set to a nicely structured blue. The flue gasses have always been safe when read and the combustion efficiency is good enough no one has said the boiler needs replacement.
What I do have is a 40 year old boiler that sips some weekly water, must be full of sediment, is a wonder in that it hasn’t corroded thru, and the NBP of which might just win an award for ‘best way to shoot water up and around a one pipe steam system’!
It - my boiler - also needs to be replaced. Sitting here for 12 weeks, reading about steam boilers, and thinking about mine have made that clear. From the contractor list I have a couple fine local possibilities. First though I need to calm the partner down and get her to see it too. The boiler leaves me feeling like we are walking on egg shells.
One last thought of mine before the reveal. I have seen all 6 boilers that the gas company referenced in their notice. None of them are piped well around the boiler. All are variations on the knuckle-headed stuff shared on this site. Well, in truth one has since been changed out and the new NBP looks correct by my eye. Point is, of all the bad jobs done long ago installing my neighborhoods’ boilers on the gas company’s list, mine is the doozie! My story, and boiler, are anecdotal evidence but it goes go to show that wet steam does indeed cost money.
What steams me is that every gas bill paid during each heating season for the past 4 decades by whomever lived here has paid for the mistake of the person who installed this boiler.
I moved in with my future wife-to-be 14 winters back. First thing my girl does is teach me how to weekly clear the LWCO and about watching the water level and then tell me ‘it’s your task now, dear’! This was my first experience with steam heat. I am an evangelist now.
While learning about fixing radiator vents I also came to know water hammer and associated noises were not good. At some point I got hold of one of Dan H’s books and after a couple of heating seasons’ tweaking I made them go away. High Fives all round.
To my chagrin the occasional wandering tea kettle sounds of the radiator vents remain. Though I find them pleasant I came to understand they are symptomatic of wet steam. Yes, you guessed and I eventually learned, it is caused by poor NBP. Patience, please, while I tell my story.
5 winters back I received notice from the gas company that my usage stood out when compared to the surrounding neighbors. Unexpectedly nice of them. This was significant given there are 6 almost identical units (3 two-family houses in a row, same builder) all using steam. Yes, there are variables - attic above or basement below, insulated walls or not, new verses old windows, etc. but it was clear we were/are spending more. They gave me a years worth of usage data on each home and the heating spike of ours was obvious.
Having to find an explanation and a potential fix lead me to discover this cool web site. Hats off to all you fine tradesfolk here as well the interested amatures. This is a most excellent and interesting resource.
What I learned then was wet steam increases fuel consumption as do un-insulated pipes and poor main venting. The venting I took care of, which speeded up the whole heat rising process. More high fives as comfort makes the missus happy. The steam main and return remain un-insulated, though. I know, low hanging fruit, but the initial expense of insulating the pipes is a comparatively large budget outlay in a household with a chronicly ill member. Ticks are evil. It required the intervening years to bring the other party round. FYI, I had my order entered into a vender’s shopping cart, about to commit, and was prepping the basement when I broke my right fibula at the ankle walking the dog mid January. Black ice bummer!
I am aware of the role of the pressuretrol and the importance of its settings. Rest assured mine is down as low as possible with a Honeywell 401 for the past 5 winters now. It still runs forever in the morning on the chilly starts, like awhile back and 6 degrees F, but that makes sense given the boilers ‘working state’, ie. wet steam and nude main & runouts & return. My boiler never reaches cutout because the thermostat never cycles it on for long enough to get there. I forget which ‘anticipation’ setting is being used on the thermo. Works well by me during the day. Except for the overnight setback (getting close to agreement with the missus on what really works best) and the fact that the place is a mite leaky all in all pretty nice heating. A convert, as I said.
Twice in the past 4 years I have come close to reworking my NBP. I have a buddy, an elevator mechanic, who is willing to help me get a pipe order together for the local supply house to cut and thread. The work itself I felt capable of accomplishing and my wet leg (which has to be junked up given no maintenance and the telltale at the glass sight of condensates slow return to the boiler) needs some attention - I have an epoxy repaired pinhole leak at my Hartford Loop close nipple. Go J-B Weld! What stopped me was reading discussions and recommendations about attempting such work. Most alarming, given I had sawzall in hand at one point, were the admonishments not to mess with an old boiler. Upon research, I discovered that my boiler has a born on date of 1980! Just shy of 40 years. I could have created a mess. I am an amature at this afterall. No high fives for that sort of chaos.
About that yearly maintenance... No, I never did attempt clearing the wet leg. Was not sure how to contain the mess, what to actually do, was it dire, etc. What I have done for maintenance is keep the pigtail cleared, keep the LWCO clean, and keep the burner flame set to a nicely structured blue. The flue gasses have always been safe when read and the combustion efficiency is good enough no one has said the boiler needs replacement.
What I do have is a 40 year old boiler that sips some weekly water, must be full of sediment, is a wonder in that it hasn’t corroded thru, and the NBP of which might just win an award for ‘best way to shoot water up and around a one pipe steam system’!
It - my boiler - also needs to be replaced. Sitting here for 12 weeks, reading about steam boilers, and thinking about mine have made that clear. From the contractor list I have a couple fine local possibilities. First though I need to calm the partner down and get her to see it too. The boiler leaves me feeling like we are walking on egg shells.
One last thought of mine before the reveal. I have seen all 6 boilers that the gas company referenced in their notice. None of them are piped well around the boiler. All are variations on the knuckle-headed stuff shared on this site. Well, in truth one has since been changed out and the new NBP looks correct by my eye. Point is, of all the bad jobs done long ago installing my neighborhoods’ boilers on the gas company’s list, mine is the doozie! My story, and boiler, are anecdotal evidence but it goes go to show that wet steam does indeed cost money.
What steams me is that every gas bill paid during each heating season for the past 4 decades by whomever lived here has paid for the mistake of the person who installed this boiler.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.
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1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
My wet leg. Corrosion due to leak at Hartford Loop close nipple.
My emergency fix. I had been trying to locate the pinhole for a couple years. When the heat came up the end of October I finally found it. I used a wire brush and small file to clean it relatively well and applied some J-B weld, between cycles. Cured way fast for this epoxy to say the least and has lasted till now.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
My control setup.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
Yikes, the glare on the gauge. A better view.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.
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Old creative solution. I surmise that the sliver painted piping was put in place when the boiler was changed over from coal to natural gas. The radiator in the kitchen presented a problem and this was their solution. Kinda cockamamie, but works.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
That's a Dunkirk boiler- not great to begin with, and unless the NBP is exactly right you'll get wet steam. The first issue is that the steam outlet is bushed down from 2-1/2" to 2", and they used only one of the two steam connections. This increases the steam velocity and pulls water out of the boiler along with the steam.
40 years old? Time for a new one. Where are you located?All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Are you sure that’s not galvanized piping?0
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Thanks for sharing! And what a nice opportunity for a laboratory-type environment with your neighbors as controls to demonstrate the importance of a proper installation. It would be wonderful to have the feedback a year from now!New England SteamWorks
Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
newenglandsteamworks.com0 -
The most troubling thing to me is the "1" union cross connect with a union" between the 2" steam riser and the 1" return drop. That will put steam into that return backwards and cause all kinds of havoc
I suppose it could be a counter flow supply but I doubt it..0 -
@the_donut, the silver is definitely an applied metallic paint that is flaking off in a few areas. Also, looking closely at the joints it can be seen covering whatever was used as pipe dope back in the day.1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0
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@Steamhead, I agree that this could have been piped in a much better fashion. Seems to me to have been installed by a plumber given the overall neatness. Just a guess, though. Clearly it was not installed by anyone with a real understanding of steam systems. It was bushed down at the boiler and then bushed up just 24” away to tie it into the existing silver painted piping.
The H.B. Smith company history is a little sketchy for the eighties time frame. Given the Dunkirk manufacturing plate, I assume Smith rebadged the boiler. I was able to locate an online serial number decoder, hence the 1980 born-on date.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
And yes, definitely in need of replacing.
Why hasn’t it rotted from the inside out long ago? My current theory is a fortuitous confluence of errors has keep it steaming for this long.
At some point during one of this winter’s series of windstorms the mast head (?, not sure of my terminology) where the electrical feed from the pole connects to the conduit on the house was pulled loose. Word is we could use a new feed and given the 60 amp main panel is stuffed with circuit breakers an upgrade is in order. That is two major systems overhauled this summer. Feeling some serious household financial sticker shock around here.
FYI - during the ‘bomb cyclone’ big blow this 100 year old two-story house shook 3 times from just incredible gusts. No hurricane in my time here has ever done that.1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
That's correct, and I have seen these Smith-rebadged Dunkirk boilers before. Bryant, Carrier and others have rebadged Dunkirks too.FinishGuy said:Given the Dunkirk manufacturing plate, I assume Smith rebadged the boiler. I was able to locate an online serial number decoder, hence the 1980 born-on date.
Smith is a shadow of its former self. Once a powerhouse in the industry, it now appears to be simply rebadging others' foundry products. The current Smith 8 series, for example, is now a rebadged Peerless WBV.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@New England SteamWorks - most welcome and much appreciated coming from a professional such a yourself.
I myself am looking forward to a new heart for my steam system and will attempt to follow-up with my informal comparison in the future.
I am wondering if I can request a similar gas useage neighborhood comparison from the gas company directly... Worth a call.
1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.0 -
@Steamhead, I just had to hobble down to the basement and check. I had never noticed the cutout on the boiler jacket for the second connection. Then again it was toward the partition and crossed by the PRV drain line.
I am in Arlington, MA, a WNW suburb of Boston. I am aware that several good steam men work in my area. Been ogling their work on here for awhile now. I was going to request bids after the heating season passed and the pressure off...
Honestly, the pun just happened.1916 two-family, now condo. Top floor. 970 sq. ft. of ‘well ventilated’ space. One-pipe, parallel flow, gas fired steam heat. 27’ of 2” main (un-insulated) vented via Gorton #2. 27’ 1 1/2” dry return (un-insulated) vented by Dole #5. 7 HB Smith Princess 2 col. radiators (38” tall) & 1 ARCo 30s era thin-tube 6 x 8 sec. (32” tall) = total radiator EDR 244. Using Maid-o-Mist radiator vents, sized by calc. & 14 winters tinkering. 1980 HB Smith G210-S-5 rated output 120,000 btu, poor near boiler piping.
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