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Taco Green Mode?

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kredmore
kredmore Member Posts: 53
Anyone have any more information on this? What's it for, how it works, etc.? I can't find anything other than what's in the pdf documents below. And guessing it's for hot water circulators that when constantly on, the pump throttles it's curve back.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-541-0015e.pdf
https://heatinghelp.com/industry-news/taco-launches-the-three-setting-0015e3-ecm-high-efficiency-circulator/
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-517-007e.pdf
Dave H_2

Comments

  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 462
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    I think the document says it all. It is a 3 speed circ with an ECM motor. It has no throttling. They have others that auto adapt to delta P or delta T. That one is a three speed pump.
    Dave H_2
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    I get that it's a 3 speed ECM pump. However, there is "Green Mode active system monitoring and power optimization" after 12 hours of constant circulation with a curve that increases. It
    "automatically self-adjusts" - why does it need to do that? What is the curve based on? When does green mode stop? etc.
    Dave H_2
  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 462
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    I see what you are talking about. Looks like it is for DHW recirc application. It only kicks in after it runs for 12 hours straight. Looks like Chinese engineering to me. Why not have that mode selectable. How do you get it out of that mode? Lots of questions.
    Dave H_2
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 891
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    So in talking to my rep this is the info I was told.

    007 and 0015E's have this mode that after 12 hours of constant run time, no off just constant run the pump goes into a "green mode" where it is adjusting itself to save money and to "protect itself". In theory a pump would never stay on this long with a call. I just stared at him, then he said "yeah they are fixing it".

    The viridian series is not affected by this, which is good because I have a lot of VT2218 out there. Sadly I can't remember if the 1816 in certain modes have this but its worth a call to Taco if you are concerned.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
    Rich_49Dave H_2SuperTech
  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 462
    edited March 2018
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    Perhaps this is for when it is attached to a Zone relay and the Taco outdoor reset goes into wwsd and a thermostat gets cranked by someone. They should fix that too.
    Dave H_2
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    Interesting Tom. Feels like a "slow down protection" mode for a pump that is potentially running all the time for some other reason. Not sure I understand how that is considered a concern to be fixed? And what happens to all the pumps out there with green mode already?

    Curious how the curve goes up, meaning with more head, the pump pushes more water - not sure how this works?

    to the point earlier, so many questions....

    Also, I have the same inquiry into Taco as well, so will pass along what I get.
    Dave H_2
  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 462
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    I bet it is to meet some sort of energy efficiency standard. Title 20 and Florida HB 849 energy efficiency statutes or something. Mainly aimed at pool pumps.
    Dave H_2
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 891
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    They honestly didn't think of a situation where a pump would run constant for 12 hours and not shut off or lose a call. If within the 12 hours it loses the call then the clock starts over. They are correcting it with the new pumps and are willing to swap out pumps that you have installed that are giving you trouble. The light is the indicator of what mode you are in. Green light is efficiency mode orange is normal mode, I believe that is correct
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
    Dave H_2
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
    edited March 2018
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    Guess I’m not understanding what is wrong that needs fixing?
    Dave H_2
  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 462
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    It's a useless feature. And unwanted in some circumstances. The only thing it is useful for is if a zone sticks open by accident. It will slow down after 12 hours. So unless it is a government regulation requirement or a feature obtained through outsourcing the chips in it, it needs to go.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,467
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    "protect itself"? from what. If a zone is at design condition should it not continue to run at the flow required?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Rich_49GordySuperTechdelta T
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 891
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    Hot rod that was my point and now there thinking. Im not doing it justice with my explanation there is more to it. But as always if you dont like the feature they are willing to swap it out for the new version that does not have it.

    Engineering does great things, but at times it over steps and needs a minor paddling
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Tom said:

    So in talking to my rep this is the info I was told.

    007 and 0015E's have this mode that after 12 hours of constant run time, no off just constant run the pump goes into a "green mode" where it is adjusting itself to save money and to "protect itself". In theory a pump would never stay on this long with a call. I just stared at him, then he said "yeah they are fixing it".

    The viridian series is not affected by this, which is good because I have a lot of VT2218 out there. Sadly I can't remember if the 1816 in certain modes have this but its worth a call to Taco if you are concerned.

    In theory , the circ and system would stay on from Thanksgiving to Easter . Your Rep told you they are fixing it ? Fixing what , it's not broken .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Gordy
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    Feels like it's just an efficiency mode for always on circulators, say with panel radiation and TRVs. Just a feature that is or is not wanted. And the curve (gpm vs. head) that goes up - why would that be?
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    I have asked Taco support, and nothing helpful so far, just re-stating the installation manual, and recommending another pump without green mode.
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 891
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    @Rich

    IF I understand it correctly after 12 hours of constant running the pump will change from an orange light to a green light showing you its put itself in a efficiency mode, and this means its also in a decreased performance mode.

    That being said, the problem is if the pump is sized to a specific load and then it derates itself then the curve changes and you may never satisfy the call because the pump in the efficiency mode cant satisfy the call or worse isn't enough pump to work at all.

    Taco is supposedly eliminating the efficiency mode due to the amount of people complaining.

    So if I have that right, thats whats broken. As I previously stated I may have that incorrect. Hoping someone from Taco will chime in and correct me if so.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    That makes sense. This is how it works. In addition, I would like Taco to explain why it's there in the first place? Meaning, what's the purpose? Just to save on electrical costs and pump longevity?
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Okay , what I'm gonna say will be controversial . Bear with me Erin .

    Many products these days have had things built into them so they could comply with one or more stupid protocol required by one or more entities to be eligible for rebates or be called energy star or any number of other nonsensical stuff .

    Then we have the designers / installers using ASHRAE numbers or ACCA numbers for design load calcs . Example , where I live the design outdoor temp is 13* , I have many peers who actually use this instead of a lower OAT then spend ample time running to people's homes trying to figure out why their state of the art systems only reach 65 - 67* during a period when the OAT is lower than what they designed for . I know this to be so because I have counseled many while they were on site to change reset curves or increase max water temps . Alot of this issue came to light during our past very cold winter , this I know .

    My suggestion to many when things like this arise is spend more time learning about the many intricacies of designing systems , Taco has a great 2 day school called advanced soup to variable speed nuts , that if one really pays attention and does not go with the attitude that they already know it all will really elevate your knowledge .

    Last year some folks were complaining that the VT2218 was too responsive when flows and pressures changed in systems . some spoke with engineers at Taco to complain that their Delta T circ maintained Delta too well and they should dumb it or slow it down because the boilers were not that fast to respond to those same changes .

    Maybe , just maybe the wrong circ was spec'd on many jobs . Just throwin that out there . The unintended consequences of everyone's complaining may end up with the altogether elimination of some products .

    Looking at a different product for some applications might be prudent .

    I knew a whole lot 15 years ago , but as I look back I really actually sucked , and I'm still getting better .

    Ask yourself when things happen , what can I do different or better ?

    Maybe the utilities and agencies that think these things are good ideas and require them for certain programs should actually learn about heating systems . As of this writing , they know nothing what so ever about efficiency . Case in point , make the circ so that it automatically changes operation if it runs longer than 12 hours .
    Real world , we are trying to make reset curves so tight and use such low water temps that our circs and boilers run CONSTANTLY to achieve max efficiencies .

    See the disconnect ? Realize the disconnect and use the right tool

    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    CanuckerGordySuperTechSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    Well said @Rich
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    Rich_49Solid_Fuel_Man
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,467
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    Seems ECM technology alone should meet any of the energy codes? What does the 12 hour slow down function have to do with rebate or protocol?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Well Bob , you'd have to inquire about that specifically to the Utilities and / or their Program managers who asked for this and alot of other nonsense . Maybe similar to DOE and the utilities telling everyone to set their water heaters down to around 120* every year despite the danger which we all know about .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Steve Thompson (Taco)
    Steve Thompson (Taco) Member Posts: 204
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    Hot Rod: "Seems ECM technology alone should meet any of the energy codes? What does the 12 hour slow down function have to do with rebate or protocol?"

    I absolutely agree with you, it is true ECM at speed will draw less than half the power but it's not just "ECM Technology" that meets energy codes and delivers the best component and system efficiency. ECM with the right control mode is the answer for maximum savings, although most control modes work for most applications (example: temperature control is best for outdoor reset or boiler protection, delta P will work but better with additional control devices).

    The slow down feature almost reminds me of Auto Adapt :-). Adjusts pump proportional curve to better match system curve.
    Rich_49Dave H_2Zman
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,467
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    Steve, can you elaborate on the protect itself statement?
    If it is a "auto adapt" like feature would not the pump always be in green mode? Why wait 12 hours? What if the load required more, not less energy transfer after 12 hours?

    Nice chatting with you in Toronto.

    So in talking to my rep this is the info I was told.

    007 and 0015E's have this mode that after 12 hours of constant run time, no off just constant run the pump goes into a "green mode" where it is adjusting itself to save money and to "protect itself". In theory a pump would never stay on this long with a call. I just stared at him, then he said "yeah they are fixing it".
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Dave H_2SuperTech
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    I won’t speak for Steve, but the statement sounds like full output then reverting to auto adapt type of mode.
    Dave H_2
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 558
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    OK @kredmore and @Tom and @Rich and @ChasMan

    Here goes with some of the questions to answer and help clarify Green Mode in the 007e and the 0015e3.

    I apologize for not checking in earlier, I have been away from my computer for the past couple of days.

    As the industry is changing for the better and more and more technology can be added (sometimes for the good, sometimes bad, as in way too much), we at Taco came out with VT2218 and the VR1816. They have many features and settings, that it can be dizzying in understanding where to set the darn thing so that it works. Several years later we introduced the 007e because everyone wanted what they were used to, the 007. Install it, forget it, done! The 007e was that answer, it's performance curve was very similar to the 007, but in an ECM format and with Delta P if needed based upon the system it was installed in.

    In 2017, Taco added a secondary operating curve to the 007e and 0015e3 models. We named this additional curve “Green Mode”, where “Green” was synonymous with lower power consumption and a higher Energy Efficiency rating. When this mode activated, the LED indicator on the circulator changed to Green.

    One reason for this change is primarily attributed to future Department of Energy (DOE) regulations. The future DOE mandate is the main driver for the current Industry transition to ECM circulators. All circulators will be rated with a Pump Energy Index (PEI) efficiency rating, where a lower rating is better.

    The second reason we added this feature was for constant circulation systems, mainly for those low flow rate TRV style systems. If the circ ran for 12 continuous hours, that probably means that you have a TRV system and the proportional curve is more desired for the comfort and the efficiency of the system.

    Dave H.
    Dave H
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 558
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    OK @kredmore and @Tom and @Rich and @ChasMan

    I posted too quickly before I answered all of your questions.

    It was determined that 12 hours of continuous operation was a reasonable time period limit for the vast majority of US systems with the understanding that most US systems operate with On/Off thermostats and Zone Valves or Zone Circulators. Thermostats typically cycle heating equipment on/off for a few minutes, not hours.

    Some feedback received from the field this past heating season indicated that in some rare cases, 12 hours may not be a long enough time period. The severe cold snap this past winter resulted in a few cases with reports of systems operating for more than 12 hours continuously and Green Mode activated. Most tech support calls received were not that the system wasn't heating or underperforming, just what the heck is this green light?

    And for some systems specifically designed for constant circulation, the new Green mode became an issue in a few isolated instances. We also looked at those systems in detail and a few of those actually needed a larger circulator like the VT2218. So even without the green mode, those projects wouldn't have performed well anyway during the cold snap.
    Dave H
    Rich_49SuperTech
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Hey Dave, how ya feeling?

    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    Dave H_2
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 891
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    The good news: I wasn’t a mile off!! I should tell my wife, she will be so proud.

    Dave thanks for clarifying and doing a much better job explaining it.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
    Dave H_2
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 558
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    @Mark Eatherton

    Good Morning ME, I'm doing great, feeling great. Took a couple weeks of R&R but getting right back into it next week.

    @hot rod
    I'll clarify from Steve's post and also the "protect itself" statement.

    One, there is no extra protection in Green Mode. All it did was operation on a single proportional pressure performance curve (say that three times fast!)
    That single curve is similar to the VR1816's low setting.

    Auto anything is actually a series of proportional curves responding to the actual system performance. For simplicity in the operation and selection and manufacturing of the 007e and the 0015e3, we didn't want to add the Active Adapt function.

    The 12 continuous hours run time involved a long thought out process which we had figured would have been more than enough since most systems like baseboard and fan coils would have actually cycled several times already (restarting the clock every time).

    So, moving forward, we have revised the firmware to improve the performance and eliminate these conditions.
    - For the 007e, we have extended the time period before Green mode activates from 12 hours to 7 days of continuous operation.

    - For the 0015e3, we removed the Green mode on Medium and High settings completely. The Green mode will activate ONLY when the circulator is on the LOW setting . After 12 hours of continuous operation, the curve will change from LOW Constant Pressure mode to Green mode. The impact to system performance and homeowner comfort will be insignificant.

    In both cases, the 007e and 0015e3 will always reset to their original mode or setting, whenever the circulator cycles OFF.

    Dave H.
    Dave H
    Rich_49Mark EathertonSuperTech
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,467
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    Dave H said:

    @Mark Eatherton

    Good Morning ME, I'm doing great, feeling great. Took a couple weeks of R&R but getting right back into it next week.

    @hot rod
    I'll clarify from Steve's post and also the "protect itself" statement.

    One, there is no extra protection in Green Mode. All it did was operation on a single proportional pressure performance curve (say that three times fast!)
    That single curve is similar to the VR1816's low setting.

    Auto anything is actually a series of proportional curves responding to the actual system performance. For simplicity in the operation and selection and manufacturing of the 007e and the 0015e3, we didn't want to add the Active Adapt function.

    The 12 continuous hours run time involved a long thought out process which we had figured would have been more than enough since most systems like baseboard and fan coils would have actually cycled several times already (restarting the clock every time).

    So, moving forward, we have revised the firmware to improve the performance and eliminate these conditions.
    - For the 007e, we have extended the time period before Green mode activates from 12 hours to 7 days of continuous operation.

    - For the 0015e3, we removed the Green mode on Medium and High settings completely. The Green mode will activate ONLY when the circulator is on the LOW setting . After 12 hours of continuous operation, the curve will change from LOW Constant Pressure mode to Green mode. The impact to system performance and homeowner comfort will be insignificant.

    In both cases, the 007e and 0015e3 will always reset to their original mode or setting, whenever the circulator cycles OFF.

    Dave H.

    Thanks for clearing this up with the detailed explanation. Stay well.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    Dave H said:

    @Mark Eatherton

    So, moving forward, we have revised the firmware to improve the performance and eliminate these conditions.
    - For the 007e, we have extended the time period before Green mode activates from 12 hours to 7 days of continuous operation.

    - For the 0015e3, we removed the Green mode on Medium and High settings completely. The Green mode will activate ONLY when the circulator is on the LOW setting . After 12 hours of continuous operation, the curve will change from LOW Constant Pressure mode to Green mode. The impact to system performance and homeowner comfort will be insignificant.

    In both cases, the 007e and 0015e3 will always reset to their original mode or setting, whenever the circulator cycles OFF.

    Yes, thank you for the detailed information.

    I have that exact field scenario. When winter is at it's coldest, 12 hours is sometimes not quite enough.

    So, when will that new firmware come through in the 0015e3 for purchase?

    I just purchased a 0015e3 that has the "old" firmware, and will be changing out the 2nd one as well.
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
    edited April 2018
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    Dave -

    Yes, thank you for the detailed information.

    I have that exact field scenario. When winter is at it's coldest, 12 hours is sometimes not quite enough.

    So, when will that new firmware come through in the 0015e3 for purchase?

    I just purchased a 0015e3 that has the "old" firmware, and will be changing out a 2nd old pump as well.
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 558
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    @kredmore

    I am not sure when they will be available however, you could use the VR1816, that does not have the Green mode and you can set it for anything you need.

    Dave H.
    Dave H
    Rich_49
  • kredmore
    kredmore Member Posts: 53
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    Thanks Dave. The VR1816 is higher cost, but could be an option.
  • Gillette
    Gillette Member Posts: 1
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    I replaced a ten year old pump with a 007e about two weeks ago on a wood burning boiler. It is on continuously for six months of the year and I was aware that it would go into green mode after 12 hours. I can easily restart the pump if I need it to be in orange mode.

    What I have found is that there appears to be no difference in performance in the two modes for my setup. Since the maximum watts drawn in orange mode is 44, I assumed in Green mode it would draw less. In my case it still draws 44 watts. Taco support says Green mode can draw as little as 5 watts, but typically it is 15-20.

    I was very surprised and disappointed it still uses 44 in my case. I did not think the pump has much work to do on my boiler. It must have to do with the viscosity of my glycol. I have to protect my system from potentially cold temperatures of -40 f. Also it circulates through a 50 plate heat exchanger. Taco support hasn’t commented to me yet on the surprise that the 007e can use 44 watts in the optimized green mode.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Pumping glycol through a 50 plate HX is work.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    Canucker
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 558
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    @Gillette The Green Mode of the 007e is designed for low flow, modulating thermostatic radiator valve systems as a system circulator. While in Green mode, the circulator can draw as much as 44 watts or as little as 4.

    What Green mode actually is, is a proportional discharge pressure curve compared to the constant discharge pressure mode (normal 007e mode).

    It would slow down if there is a changing pressure drop to the system. It sounds like with your system, the pressure isn’t changing (valves closing) and you have large pipe so you need the gpm.

    Dave H.
    Dave H
    Erin Holohan Haskell