propress joints and deformation of tubing ?

clammy

I haven t of yet bit the bullet and purchased but a few fellow tradesmen that i work for have and as much as i was impressed w the speed of its use i had some concerns with the deformation of the tubing.It seemed quite apparent that when using m tubing there is definately some squaring of both fitting and piping .While when using with L tubing i saw way less deformation of tubing .Just to clarify this was a fairly new tool and a brand new set of close quaters adpts .For myself i didnt really dig the squaring of tubing and wondered its effects on over all flow lamir to turbulace .But when it comes to speed it is quite nice and less likelyhood that you ll have leaks but the downside of tool and fitting cost and possible flow effects from pipe squaring .Or is this just tge sffects of using a thiner walled pipe (m tubing) thanks for any insight peace and good luck clammy

ratio

The ZoomLock refrigerant tool I use assuridly crimps the pipe, & puts a few flats on it, too. So far, however, no leaks; but we've only been using it a few months. We run the copper up to 600lbs of N₂, just because I don't want to have a suprise later. The 90's are longer even than the long radius 90's we usually use, too.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@clammy ,

I am old school and don't really like the stuff, especially the fitting cost. 2" 90s is about $30 I think.And if you close couple it or have a leak (leaks are almost non existant with PP) you have to cut it out and scrap it so it's good for scrap copper!!

But, from what I here from everyone you can't afford not to use it with the labor savings. It sure is fast.

lchmb

we have 2 crews going 5 days a week. We have cut at minimum 4 hours off each install. It saves time, it makes money and it get's me home quicker at night.. I have had a few leaks, but in all case's it was my mistake for not marking my stab depth.

delta T

I have been using it on M Cu for three years now, I too was concerned at first about the deformation, but as of yet I have had no problems.

Well, actually I just had a leak last week on a ball valve that we installed in my shop on the main water service we had to replace, it was K soft Cu tubing, slight drip. I was kind of shocked as I hadn't ever had a leak like this....then I saw the o-ring sitting in the bottom of the hole......

Overall I think the benefits of labor savings are huge, but I still sweat a fair amount too. It really depends on what you are doing. Water heaters, I use press almost exclusively as those are flat rate jobs, and it does increase our margins. On small repairs though, it can go either way. If water is a concern, and I don't want to have to worry about sweating when there is a slow persistent drip, or there is a valve that doesn't hold etc...press is the way to go for sure. If the extra cost of the fitting is a concern for the customer, and the repair is under an hour either way, then I will sweat (we have a 1 hour minimum policy). Makes the customer feel like we actually did something, instead of being in and out in 15 minutes and charging an hour, it actually takes 45 mins and the hour charge is justified in the customer's eyes.

In the end, I doubt I will ever completely stop soldering, and I will always be hesitant at first in terms of embracing new technologies until they are proven. That being said, I feel press is a technology that has been on the market long enough that I can trust it.

newagedawn

many a boiler done with propress, no leaks, the tool pays for its self in the saving of time and as they say time is money!!!!,

clammy

Thanks for the input and advise ,it doesn t address concerns of deformation of piping but i guess that doesn t matter to most and maybe i m just old schooled but i guess ill be left at the station for a while and stick to screwing steel and sweating and brazing copper .I' m more leaning towards the zoom lock for ref i can surely see time savings on brazing and nitrogen purging espically on retro fitting and replacement jobs in tight space abiding im using hard drawn acr tubing .Thanks again its not like i wont be doin press fittings on others jobs for for myself gonna stay the corse thanks and peace and good luck clammy

ratio

It's fast. Faster then the Jimmy John's delivery guy, and it takes less skill than sweating pipes, too.

I'm not sure about the wisdom of using under-trained monkeys for work, but it'll allow that.

Larry Weingarten

Hello Clammy, Seems to me it wouldn't be too hard to do some side by side testing. Create two "systems", each with ten 90s, (call it a square spiral) and same size pipe/length. Install flow meters and see which has the higher head loss at various flow rates. One could also fit in some clear tube at the outlet, add some carbon or amber dust to the water and "see" the turbulence. Maybe the press fitting manufacturers would like to help?

Yours, Larry

Mark Eatherton

The slight deformation is necessary for fitting retention. It's how the fitting gets a "bite" on the pipe. Biggest problem wiht this stuff is trying to keep it straight. Yes, it save initial installation/soldering labor, but to keep it straight, it requires twice as much clamping and support, and will still have some deviations.

I did as Larry suggested, and set up a scenario. It was a 1/2" towel warmer with 12 rungs each. I'd used the RIgid pipe cutter for both arrays, so that labor was a wash, but the labor of prepping, fluxing, and soldering was showing a labor savings of ProPress versus soldering by 40%. Your milage may vary. I didn't pressure test it under flow, but am certain that the PD across both would be very nearly equal.

And my experience as it pertains to leaks, I had one bad joint, and it was operator error. No issues with glycol as other early adopters had experienced.

Where this tool and fittings REALLY shine, was on "Live Fire" applications. I had to replace a 2" ball valve that had failed in teh open position, and the management company couldn't shut off the water without giving 48 hour advanced notice. So we went in, cut the ball valve out with a sawzall (cordless), stabbed the new ball valve on in the open position, reached up and pinched the fitting, and closed the ball valve. The property manager was watching us the whole time and swore she'd never use another service company. Saved them some serious bacon, and kept us on schedule.

ME

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Mark Eatherton

Agree about the "live fire"

I don't like propress but can't find enough reasons not to use it.

Keeping it straight is an issue. We put up a lot of 2" 20 footers with tees every 5'.

We used an adjustable pipe stand(s) and try pod and leveled as we moved down the line. That kept it pretty level.

To minimize the "left-right" zig zags we eyeballed it and made all the crimps at 3 oclock and 9 oclock as we moved down the pipe.

Not perfect

You could easily turn a circle with it. Not to mention the bent supply house tubing.

hot_rod

Copper roll grooving has been used for years, it probably raises more of an obstruction than press?

Rich_49

ratio said:

It's fast. Faster then the Jimmy John's delivery guy, and it takes less skill than sweating pipes, too.

I'm not sure about the wisdom of using under-trained monkeys for work, but it'll allow that.

As opposed to the under trained monkeys who think sweating pipe makes them more talented than a monkey who's trained properly and assembles properly but uses Press ? Like that ?

Pretty offensive comment there Mr Ratio .

Just to be fair to monkeys . I have trained plenty of them to sweat copper , it' really does not take that much talent to do properly . IMO

ratio

Sorry @Rich, didn't intend to be offensive.

GroundUp

I try to sweat whenever possible. Press has its place in repairs and live taps, and yes it does save a lot of time in installation. However the inevitable banana in all pipe when coupled with the press fittings makes it very difficult to keep straight without hangers every few feet and sometimes not even then. Personally I think it looks like crap no matter what you do. As for the monkey business, I may be biased as a union tradesman but it does take time and skill to solder a proper, visually appealing piping system. Any meathead can learn to solder, but very few are good at it. Any meathead can pull a trigger too, but nobody can make it look good IMO. Takes a lot of skill out of the trade, and judging by the last several dozen apprentices (or journeymen for that matter) I've had, we need all the skill we can get because the majority of them have none. Paying some skill-less clown off the street a 6 figure income to squeeze a trigger doesn't sit well with me. Now if they have the ABILITY to do the rest of the job, kudos. I see guys all the time come out to my jobs that can't read a print, can't weld, can't solder, can't read a tape measure, can't even put teflon tape on the right way half the time. These are people who have been in the trade for 10+ years. Just because they can run a press tool does not make them any less of a monkey

BenDplumber

I'm with ya brother @groundup. A lot of skill involved with sweating copper especially to make a clean wiped joint with 100% penetration.

Tinman

@Rich - I've soldered pipe for 37 years. I've pressed for 1 month. Pressing is infinitely easier than soldering.