1953 Blueprint shows 2689 EDR connected, Boiler nameplate rating of 1266 Sq Ft....will it ever work

JUGHNE

There are 2 SIN8LNS-LE2, Burnham Independence supplying that EDR.
Each boiler is 245,000 input...DOE HTG capacity is 202,000 BTU/hr
Steam 633 SQ. FT. or 152,000BTU/HR.

How could it ever work?

Danny Scully

No idea @JUGHNE, you know what might help?...A PDF OF THE BLUEPRINTS. Why are you SUCH a tease?

Fred

Any indications of electromechanical or pneumatic valves and timers that might have switched between two mains?

Charlie from wmass

Have you actually measured the existing edr?

Mike Cascio

The mention of blueprints witout ever seeing them is absolutely a tease!

JUGHNE

All piping, traps, valves, and even F&T's are original.
There are two 3"gate valves for the 2 mains above the boiler that probably have never been moved.....actually look to be a waste of money.
The prints show no zoning.

This is a church covering several generations of parishioners,
the way it works is that the oldest generation has to die off before any change can be made. Most all is original.
The major changes were to air coil units with fans.
The print shows 4 of them to be 376 EDR with 1000 CFM fans, a new unit with a chiller water coil was added to these 4.
One other 87.5 EDR was upgraded to chiller water coil with steam. (This one may have increased EDR....add more EDR to what I had stated above.)
As in any church there is a lot of volunteer work done. You always know if they changed something.

JUGHNE

But Mike, it got you here didn't it??

the_donut

Did they install all of blueprints edr? Original boilers?

JUGHNE

All the units are there, I have looked, put my hands on them etc.
Piping is in 2 tunnels that no one would venture into....except maybe me....
The original boiler was a single oil burner unit, it may have been converted to NG sometime in the past. {Print shows a single 6" steam riser going to a 6" header with 2 3" steam mains attached.}
They now have the 2 gas boilers mentioned above.

the_donut

Does it only heat up near boiler radiators?

Fred

I would have to guess they only heated a portion of the church at any given time, the sanctuary on Sunday, the offices on certain days, the basement rec areas at other times. People weren't lazy back then. It was not an issue to walk around and turn rads off individually. Probably the only areas that were heated constantly were areas where water pipes/bathroom fixtures might freeze/burst..

JUGHNE

Steam does get to the end of the mains. One is 150', the other 210' long. The end convectors are a little thin on delivering the heat.
The system runs at 1 PSI max, today with 10 degrees amb it cycled on the tstat set at 65. 7530 Sq Ft.

JUGHNE

Fred, no basement. 65 degrees with no set back.
Yes some convectors are valved off. May 4 out of 30 are off.

Tools are needed and covers must be removed to get to valves,
no one today will do that.

Fred

Doubt the original blue print/plan was followed. A 7530 sq. ft building would never have needed 2689 EDR. The current boiler sizing seems much more appropriate.

New England SteamWorks

Well, we need to know more! I know I keep playing the game of "How Low Can We Go", and I keep going lower, and I haven't found the bottom yet. I wouldn't really be surprised if it heated. Everything was always over-radiated back then. Keep us posted.

JUGHNE

All steel fin/copper tube convectors.

No setback attempted.

All stone and masonary walls with 1" of FG between 8-10" concrete and paneling. Cathedral ceiling that might be 45' at the peak. That had 2" FG in it. They have since add more to the inside of the ceiling.....maybe 2" extruded foam board.

All concrete floor, terrazzo, no carpet, no edge insulation.
Piping runs in a 3' x3' tunnel around perimeter.
Originally had up to 4000 cfm max outside air brought in via dampers.
Those are now closed up.
Leaded glass windows with single pane storms, for the most part.
Like a cold stone castle.

Boiler has terrible water, EOM F&T traps are original (in the tunnel). Water level is set 2" too high, (a major amount for these boilers). Wet steam?? Good NBP from each drop heading into existing 6" header with the 2 3" mains attached.

Hardly been touched since the 2002 install.
Cleaning up gives you the same satisfaction of vacuuming a really dirty carpet. You know you did something.

MilanD

I bet someone at some point sized it to heat loss at 65f and also not at design temps, and thought not to worry about the sanctuary for once per week: people will wear coats, nor that the connected load of rads is larger. There was a post here recently about someone putting steam back in a church, and how in old days heating in big churches with tall ceilings was sized down from heat loss from all surfaces on purpose, to keep heat at the floor level and deliver heat to people vs air that would, once heated, rise up. Perhaps someone can find that post.

MilanD

And this being said, 1266edr sounds right on 7,500 sq ft space. I have 10,000 sq ft, one 38x61 room with 30ft sloped roof ceiling, and another 15ft ceiling room below it, plus main building, on 1920edr. Brick, no insulation, single pane 1922 eara windows, large ones and a lot of them.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Well, the 2 3" mains look like they are sized ok to carry the full 2689 EDR installed.

When un occupied which is most of the time they didn't run the AHUs because they didn't need fresh air only the radiation. When the church is occupied they ran the AHUs for fresh air, radiation not needed heated by people???????????????????????????????????????????/

DanHolohan

There is this to consider:

https://heatinghelp.com/blog/heating-old-churches/

Also, you're seeing 1-psig pressure. The only way to do that is to fill the system with a gas and then add more gas. The gas can be either steam or air. If the steam isn't reaching the ends of the mains and there is pressure, I suspect the air isn't venting like it once did.

JUGHNE

I suspect the EOM F&T's perhaps not passing the air they should.
Could the steam main's only venting be thru the convector traps?
Perhaps the float still works but the thermostatic vent failed shut? Does that happen?

When weather is right I will check them. They are probably original to the 1953 install. No one knows they exist so they have probably never been serviced.

DanHolohan

Yes, that happens.

JUGHNE

A few years ago on another project, I figured out there was a F&T hiding somewhere. Had to cut open a wall to find it. Another one that was neglected for 50 years.
(Back to the well-meaning volunteers stories....cover up all that ugly plumbing/piping)

Thanks to all who responded, it is up to 10* now, have a head cold and will wait for warmer weather.

Will keep you posted.

brandonf

A packed church rarely needs much heat. Haha. It has a mob of 98.6 degree people inside it.

Mark Eatherton

brandonf said:

A packed church rarely needs much heat. Haha. It has a mob of 98.6 degree people inside it.

At 500 btu's per person per hour, it's darned near the output of one foot of residential baseboard convector. Actually, it's 350 btuH sensible and 150 btuH latent... Has to be dealt with and taken into consideration regardless. And that assumes no physical workout going on (at rest).

ME

Charlie from wmass

Sadly packed churches are not a problem we have most of the time.

JUGHNE

That 500 btu/person is a good number to apply for cooling load.
But, splitting hairs here, consider the R-value of the clothes covering these human heat emitters. The purpose of the winter clothes is to retain heat........the quilt over the hot radiator....so to speak.

Only when they feel overheated and remove the coat will that heat be available to the neighbors.

Just to stir the discussion pot a little.