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Boiler protection valve

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cutter
cutter Member Posts: 292
Do all boilers need boiler protection valves now, or does just the condensing boilers need the valve. I have a neighbor that bought a regular boiler about 10 years ago now and did not put in the valve. I just put one in a 35 year old cast iron burnhum that may have been a waste of time. I only figure on using it a couple of years, then put in gas. Just wondering

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  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,335
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    Hello, There are various safety devices on a modern boiler. Might be best if you took a photo of what you have, so folks here can accurately respond. ;)

    Yours, Larry
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    UMC now requires a valve on the return to avoid the boiler condensing. Not sure about the IMC tho... It's a good idea.

    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,258
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    cutter said:

    Do all boilers need boiler protection valves now, or does just the condensing boilers need the valve. I have a neighbor that bought a regular boiler about 10 years ago now and did not put in the valve. I just put one in a 35 year old cast iron burnhum that may have been a waste of time. I only figure on using it a couple of years, then put in gas. Just wondering

    The boiler will let you know if it is running often in condensing mode. You will see signs of corrosion around or on the burners. Rust under the burner rack, , possible signs of staining or condensation in the diverter hood and venting. Vent cap up top corroding away from cold flue operation.

    Not all boilers suffer from extended condensation mode. Low mass system distribution systems are usually safe, oversized boilers tend to get hot enough quickly enough :)

    It is another best practices step worth considering, and as Mark suggested some codes now require protection devices.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Zman
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    The boiler will let you know if it is running often in condensing mode. You will see signs of corrosion around or on the burners. Rust under the burner rack, , possible signs of staining or condensation in the diverter hood and venting. Vent cap up top corroding away from cold flue operation.

    Not all boilers suffer from extended condensation mode. Low mass system distribution systems are usually safe, oversized boilers tend to get hot enough quickly enough :)

    It is another best practices step worth considering, and as Mark suggested some codes now require protection devices.


    Hot Rod, You confuse me a little with what you said but I am not a boiler expert. That friend of mine who did not put on a valve is 85 years old now and he is not concerned. I was just wondering if it was recommended. I put a caleffi valve on my oil boiler and also a a caleffi pressure/temperature gauge. I figured the valve could not hurt anything. The pressure/temperature gauge is hard to install. The area from the threads to where the square is to put the wrench on is too close. Once it is screwed into the boiler the square is too close to the boiler sheet metal to get a wrench in there. The boiler sheet metal can not be pushed in so a wrench can be put on the square. I am figuring on putting in a short nipple and coupling and screwing the gauge into the coupling so it can be tightened up so it does not leak.
    I will try and post a picture of the gauge so you can see what I am saying. And a picture of the valve, not a very good one though. I am doing a pressure test now, and the gauge has a very small

    leak at the threads.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,573
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    Some systems are very unlikely to condense and very easy to predict. Baseboard heat and low mass radiant comes to mind. Easy to do the math on the output and be sure the boiler will reach setpoint.

    High mass radiant, snowmelt and systems and old gravity systems are a different story.

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    UMC now requires a valve on the return to avoid the boiler condensing. Not sure about the IMC tho... It's a good idea.

    ME

    How long has the valve been suggested or required? Was the valve required or suggested 10 years ago?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,258
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    if that 10 year old boiler is not showing signs of cold return operation, I’d let the sleeping dog lie
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    hot rod said:

    if that 10 year old boiler is not showing signs of cold return operation, I’d let the sleeping dog lie

    Would you like to make a comment on the Caleffi pressure/temperature gauge that can't be tighten up with any standard wrenches.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,258
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    it should be a common square brass shoulder for a wrench, usually 9/16 open end fits, or a 6” crescent

    if it needs to go down into the jacket of the boiler, add a nipple and coupling or bell reducer. The sensor is long enough to reach into the boiler

    We don’t off an extended shank version
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    hot rod said:

    it should be a common square brass shoulder for a wrench, usually 9/16 open end fits, or a 6” crescent



    if it needs to go down into the jacket of the boiler, add a nipple and coupling or bell reducer. The sensor is long enough to reach into the boiler



    We don’t off an extended shank version

    Look at the picture of it on top of the boiler picture I posted. I can push the jacket as you called it tight to the boiler and can not get a wrench on that square brass. If that gauge was just made 1/2 inch longer a wrench could get in there and have just a little wiggle room. I was planning on using a short (and not the close) nipple and coupling. I should not have to do that, the gauge should have been made to work without extra fittings. Use your influence on the company engineers.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    cutter said:

    UMC now requires a valve on the return to avoid the boiler condensing. Not sure about the IMC tho... It's a good idea.

    ME

    How long has the valve been suggested or required? Was the valve required or suggested 10 years ago?
    No, just introduced in the most recent version of the UMC. Even at that, it says return water must be maintained above manufacturers recommendations, but doesn't really go into detail about how to do it...

    I've personally seen the difference in operation between a variable speed injection control, versus a thermostatic non electric protection device (3 way on return) and can tell you hands down, the TRV wins.

    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,258
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    > @cutter said:
    > it should be a common square brass shoulder for a wrench, usually 9/16 open end fits, or a 6” crescent
    >
    >
    >
    > if it needs to go down into the jacket of the boiler, add a nipple and coupling or bell reducer. The sensor is long enough to reach into the boiler
    >
    >
    >
    > We don’t off an extended shank version
    >
    > Look at the picture of it on top of the boiler picture I posted. I can push the jacket as you called it tight to the boiler and can not get a wrench on that square brass. If that gauge was just made 1/2 inch longer a wrench could get in there and have just a little wiggle room. I was planning on using a short (and not the close) nipple and coupling. I should not have to do that, the gauge should have been made to work without extra fittings. Use your influence on the company engineers.
    Caleffi does not manufacture gauges we offer a universal gauge as a convience item for general piping use, it is not a direct ORM replacement

    If you need a gauge with a specific dimension, best to buy the OEM part, find the manufacturer of the original gauge, or modify the piping connection to accept a universal gauge

    There are quite a few different stem lengths and connection threads types and sizes out there
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    cutter said:

    UMC now requires a valve on the return to avoid the boiler condensing. Not sure about the IMC tho... It's a good idea.

    ME

    How long has the valve been suggested or required? Was the valve required or suggested 10 years ago?
    No, just introduced in the most recent version of the UMC. Even at that, it says return water must be maintained above manufacturers recommendations, but doesn't really go into detail about how to do it...

    I've personally seen the difference in operation between a variable speed injection control, versus a thermostatic non electric protection device (3 way on return) and can tell you hands down, the TRV wins.

    ME

    Thanks Mark