Nightmare service call/Old Repco boiler burner failure

SuperTech

I was disturbed from my sleep extremely early this morning by an emergency service call for no heat. Since it's pretty cold out I hurried over to this house hoping to remedy the situation quickly.

I was told on the phone that the pilot was out and just needed to be lit... maybe just needs a thermocouple...

So I arrive to find a very old, sad and neglected boiler. Covered in cobwebs and dust. I noticed that it had just a single burner coming off of what appears to be a new standing pilot gas valve.

The customer (an old man) explains that one of my coworkers installed the valve about a month ago. So I light the pilot and check the millivolt output of the thermocouple, 17-18 MV, looks good. So I grab my testo 320 and stuck in the breach after hooking up my manometer to the gas valve.

As soon as I switch the boiler on the burner fires and blows flames back out of the chamber. In ten seconds of operation it was producing enough CO to shut my Testo down on sensor protection. I end up finding this steel gas boiler completely plugged with soot. Damnit.

Three hours later I'm covered in soot but the boiler and flue pipe are finally clean. Tried firing the boiler again. Same results. Pulled the burner and found a burnt twisted piece of metal at the end of it and a warped disk shaped piece of metal in the chamber that was once attached to the burner.

I ended up condemning the boiler because it was unsafe to operate. I wish I had more pictures, but this picture of the burner is all I have. I doubt this wasn't any different when the new gas valve was installed. .

EBEBRATT-Ed

It's too bad you had to get all sooted up but you did the right thing. Sometimes you have to go through the motions to find the real problem

lchmb

a good discussion with a co-worker may help you sleep in the future....

NY_Rob

Just wondering how these things are handled between the time the old boiler dies and a replacement can be installed?

Since that boiler is now dead... how is the homeowner heating his house during the winter?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@NY_Rob , space heaters, fireplace--stay with friends or relatives. Most small boilers can be changed in a day or so

NY_Rob

Thanks ed,
I've been working on a backup plan in case of any short outage where I maybe had to wait a day or so for a part for my mod-con. It's a bit unnerving to know you're one part away from a no-heat call when it's 5F outside.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@NY_Rob , I can tell you a horror story. One of our techs.....I use the term loosely went on a call New Years Eve 450,000btu Viessmann mod con. He said the circuit board was bad. No parts available, holiday weekend, no one answering at Viessmann tech support. They brought a rental boiler in on a trailer and spent New Years Eve hooking it up. Temps near 0.

The next week a board was installed and it still would not run. 2d tech went who knows Viessmann pretty well. Had to enter the "2d tier" of diagnostics and found gas pressure switch was open. Checked gas pressure and it was ok...defective switch.

Now, I have a lot of experience but I am the farthest thing there is from being a mod-con expert. But if I was on that call and not being able to diagnose the "2d tier" I would have jumped every safety to try and find what was keeping it off and I would have got it running.

But, mod con parts are expensive, unless you can condense the efficiency is not there. And the parts are prepriority. Modulation is very impressive though. I am still torn between expence, longevity and efficiency versus cast iron. Then again the quality of the cast iron isn't what it used to be.

What to do?? The verdict is still out

NY_Rob

^ Yes, that is very concerning Ed..
I do worry about such a scenario playing out here too! And it's only going to get worse as the old CI boilers start to disappear being replaced by mod-cons with model specific (non-local stocked) parts.

I've gone out of my way to collect spares over the last 18 months for my HTP mod-con. I now have a full set of all switches and sensors, ignition transformer and rods, spare blower motor, a spare main board, and even a spare gas valve along with various o-rings and gaskets. Probably about $700 or so in spares.

I have recently purchased a 10gal 240v 6,000 watt hot water heater that I can pipe into my system in under 20min that should provide about 20K BTU's to my spaceheating zones if needed. My total heatloss is 27K BTU's at 15F outside.
This spring I'm installing a three head 30K BTU mini-split for our downstairs, I found that for only a few $$ more I can get the heat-pump version that will give me 30K BTU's heat as well as AC. That will be an excellent backup too!

EBEBRATT-Ed

@NY_Rob , sounds like plenty of back up to me!

Jamie Hall

The problem isn't with mod/cons alone -- although that's where we tend to see it here on the wall. Ask the guy with a John Deere tractor dead in the field for want of a proprietary circuit board (which is only a week away), or the party in the new car dead on the road for want of a some odd sensor in the engine.

And very often a non-dealer mechanic or technician can't get the information on how to safely get things going again -- never mind the part, if they need one.

I'm a trusting sort of chap, so I don't think it's actually malicious on the part of the manufacturers. Rather, they have an overconfidence in their fancy gadgetry. So... KISS.

NY_Rob

Jamie Hall said:

And very often a non-dealer mechanic or technician can't get the information on how to safely get things going again -- never mind the part, if they need one.

Yes, tech support has to get better...
One HTP "Support Tech" suggested that I pretty much pull apart my 1.5yo boiler that runs on NG to clean/flush the HX combustion chamber/fire tubes for a flame-failure to start issue. It didn't sit right with me, so I called back- spoke with another tech- he told me 99.9% of the time that error code is due to foreign matter in the gas valve and is fixed with a simple gas valve adjustment via hex wrench and CA.
I was back up and running in spec in 5min vs. 4+ hrs striping down the boiler and cleaning out the HX as suggested by the first "tech"... which wouldn't have fixed it anyway as I still would have needed to adjust the gas valve to get it running.

Local part supply needs to improve too.
If you (the supply house) sell the boiler, at least stock the common replacement parts. Even that's more complicated with a mod-con because of software/firmware revisions on the main boards and controllers.
HTP swapped out my main board last winter because of a software bug that had been fixed on the next firmware revision- only way to get that though was to get a new main board. My supply house ordered the new main board (under warranty) from their HTP supplier (Emerson Swan).. well, when the "new" board arrived 3 days later at my supply house... it was an older FW revision then the board I already had in my boiler! So, we had to have HTP verify FW/ship a new board to Swan, who in turn shipped it to my supply house who then gave it to me.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Problem is....If you have a cast Iron oil fired boiler the burner motors, ignition transformers, circulators, fuel pumps and cad cell controls are all readily available at all supply houses and maybe even to some extent at the big box stores.

Gas fired cast iron parts in the old days wern't a problem. Now they have circuit boards and all different sorts of ignitors and flame proving spark, hot surface etc. Still most of these parts are available maybe not as much as the oil fired.

Mod cons, a completely different story.

I started up 9 Reillo gas burners in Boston a few years back, large burners 3-4 million btus. The boiler room was pretty congested. The burner motors (yup, metric motors) had plastic end covers covering the cooling fans on the motor. Two of the burners the plastic covers were broken, probably smacked by a pipe or a job box accidently. On start-up 2 cooling fans and plastic covers were broken. I removed the plastic covers and cooling fans and continued the start-up so I could complete the job. These 2 burners were left shut off after start-up so the motors wouldn't overheat and we waited for replacement cooling fans.

They arrived, 2 months later and they didn't ship cooling fans they shipped 2 complete new motors! Had to wait for them to come over on the boat....under warranty.

DZoro

What bothers me is that this young tech couldn't handle a basic cast iron boiler. What is he going to do with a Mod/con.......OH BOY...
I'm not just picking on him, but many, many others out there...

Steamhead

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Problem is....If you have a cast Iron oil fired boiler the burner motors, ignition transformers, circulators, fuel pumps and cad cell controls are all readily available at all supply houses and maybe even to some extent at the big box stores.

Gas fired cast iron parts in the old days weren't a problem. Now they have circuit boards and all different sorts of ignitors and flame proving spark, hot surface etc. Still most of these parts are available maybe not as much as the oil fired.

Mod cons, a completely different story.

Our experience is that people want reliable equipment that can be fixed easily if it does break down. No one wants to wait for parts when it's cold.

Which begs the question: Are we doing the best thing for our customers by selling mod-cons?

GW

I’m Interested in the social ins and outs of this topic. We live in a first world nation. If our brand new car stops working we tend to find other means of transportation. If somebody’s new heating system stops working, aren’t there other ways to heat the house? Just my own rhetoric, comment if you will.

Fred

@GW , When you have to wait for parts for a car, yes you are inconvenienced but being without heat can have life threatening consequences, especially for the elderly and the poor, not to mention the damage to property. Are there alternative ways to heat a house? Yes, so long as you can afford the space heaters or are willing to take the risk of using the kitchen stove/oven. Car vs. heat; Different order of magnitude, I think. JMHO

Jamie Hall

GW said:

I’m Interested in the social ins and outs of this topic. We live in a first world nation. If our brand new car stops working we tend to find other means of transportation. If somebody’s new heating system stops working, aren’t there other ways to heat the house? Just my own rhetoric, comment if you will.

And quite right, Gary. I would add that for a sizable fraction of the population now -- the more urban/suburban fraction -- not only do they find another means of transportation but they expect it to be there and available when they want it. And tend to get fractious when it isn't. The same thing could be said for heating -- which is why you pros tend to get outraged calls at oh dark hundred on some snowy cold morning (and believe me I sympathize with you!).

If I look at it that way, though, I see perhaps another way (as though we needed one) that the our population is split. There are those who are following this thread and the one on generators who are expecting to be able to muddle through, more or less successfully, on their own steam and on the other hand those who expect to have a miracle worker at their beck and call when something goes amiss. The former group -- among whom I count myself -- tend to get a little peeved when they find that they can't muddle through because the framcombobulator failed and the service guy can't get one until next week and they can't hot wire their way out of the problem. The latter group tend to get peeved when the service guy can't show up in ten minutes. (Either way the poor service guy -- or gal -- is stuck...).

Interesting.

SuperTech

As far as mod cons are concerned, as a service technician when I get a call late at night, on weekends or holidays if it's a cast iron gas or oil fired boiler I'm very confident that I can get the problem solved with what is on my truck. Obviously the boiler that I mentioned in this thread was not your average service call.
With mod cons I find that the problem is usually related to a model specific part failure or a poorly installed unit, and quite often the customer has to wait until I can obtain the parts
.
Hopefully the manufacturers of mod cons will start using standardized parts on the construction of their boilers to make the boilers more service friendly.

When discussing new equipment with customers I always mention this when describing the pros and cons of high efficiency boilers. Usually customers consider reliability and ease of service more important than high AFUE.

NY_Rob

IMO... it all leads beck to the supply house or distributor.
If they're willing to sell you (the contractor) a stocking mod-con boiler they need to carry a full set of replacement electronics for it. It's not a "here ya go... good luck with it buddy" transaction. They stock parts for CI boilers right? They're going to have to start stocking parts for the mod-cons they sell once they become the standard replacement boiler for CI.

A year and a half ago there were zero mod-cons in my neighborhood, as of this summer there are now three. The neighbor directly behind me has one of them... I like to watch the condensate drift out from his (incorrectly installed down facing) vent on cold days.

SuperTech

Down facing vent... I have seen this before too. Another example of a poorly installed boiler.

I have seen many mod cons destroyed by exhaust gas recirculation from use of concentric vents or intakes installed too close to the vent

GW

Yes it’s just a curiosity as to where we are at as a society in the form of service provider and customer.

Some customers are easy going and have back up heat. Other customers will expect a service tech quickly when problems arise.

What is your policy? Do you run every call no matter who, no matter when? If you do, why? If you don’t, why?

I have new boilers sitting around my shop doing nothing but waiting to be pilfered (two Viessmanns, Buderus, Bosch). Am I obligated to give this availability to anyone? I’ve spend thousands on these pieces of equipment. Or, do I provide this service for the top tier customers (defined as- we installed their system and they have us do the recommended annual sevice) ?

Just my thoughts, Supertech, I’m sorry if I distracted from the thread. I’m most curious what the general attitude of the customer was when you did all this work for him. Did you walk out the door feeling like a highly esteemed and well-paid professional? If yes, I tip my hat

SuperTech

I felt terrible when I left his house. The most rewarding part of my job is when I get a system fixed that the customer thinks it needs replacing and most other guys wouldn't have made the effort to try to repair it.
My company goes to any customer who calls us. If we are busy then we take care of contract customers first.
This customer had clearly neglected to have any maintenance performed on this boiler in a long time. But I tried to do anything I can to get the boiler operating safely, but that old boiler probably should have been replaced years ago. He did have a wood stove as an alternate source of heat. Last I heard we were giving him options for financing a new unit.

djc2232

> @NY_Rob said:
> ^ Yes, that is very concerning Ed..
> I do worry about such a scenario playing out here too! And it's only going to get worse as the old CI boilers start to disappear being replaced by mod-cons with model specific (non-local stocked) parts.
>
> I've gone out of my way to collect spares over the last 18 months for my HTP mod-con. I now have a full set of all switches and sensors, ignition transformer and rods, spare blower motor, a spare main board, and even a spare gas valve along with various o-rings and gaskets. Probably about $700 or so in spares.
>
> I have recently purchased a 10gal 240v 6,000 watt hot water heater that I can pipe into my system in under 20min that should provide about 20K BTU's to my spaceheating zones if needed. My total heatloss is 27K BTU's at 15F outside.
> This spring I'm installing a three head 30K BTU mini-split for our downstairs, I found that for only a few $$ more I can get the heat-pump version that will give me 30K BTU's heat as well as AC. That will be an excellent backup too!

This is a great idea. Something I may look into. My pellet stove can heat the house to 75. Even at 30 below I had her running this year and the house was nice and toasty so waiting for a part may not be too bad.

What common parts would you suggest to keep on hand?

SuperTech

I felt terrible when I left his house. The most rewarding part of my job is when I get a system fixed that most other guys wouldn't have made the effort.
My company goes to any customer who calls us. If we are busy then we take care of contract customers first.
This customer had clearly neglected to have any maintenance performed on this boiler in a long time. But I was hoping I could clean up that old hunk of junk and get it working safely for him. But clearly there wasn't anything that I could do to make that boiler safe

NY_Rob

^ hopefully he's not out looking for someone who can get it running again... safe or not!

GW

yes the basic transference psychology kicks in at times; we've all been there. The better we can handle this the happier everyone is

roosterly9

I am reading this 4 years too late, but I tell you what you had here. from the picture I can tell with certainty that this was a power burner gas boiler, very much like a oil fired boiler buy gas instead. this type of burners have spark ignition and require forced combustion air. and the friend of the homeowner installed an atmospheric burner with traditional pilot, wrong and dangerous. By the way I know because I worked for Repco and remember the Boiler, it was manufactured when oil prices went through the roof and there was a rush to replace oil with gas and this was a quick way to augment the volume of production of regular atmospheric burner gas boilers.