In need of Pro Advise

kaldi

I have just finished reading We Got Steam Heat but have a few questions. Background; 1928 home, two pipe system, two loops in the basement one to west one to east. Traps on the radiators are Warren Webster 712 HB and the one on the return is Webster 0023 TVI the two loops supply returns have traps as well that feed into the condensate pipe just before the 0023, one is a 712 HB the other I am not sure what it is. When we moved into the house I had the asbestos removed and did not think much of re-insulating as other projects were taking priority. Last year the American Standard boiler decided to crack in half. Replaced with a Crown. The AS was running at 15 PSI (yes 15 not 1.5), all the radiator valves were spewing and the water hammer was not terrible but was there and of course it was using water every 4 or 5 hours. I repacked all the radiator valves and replaced the rubber stoppers, one problem solved. I have just re-insulated the two steam supply loops, what a change that has made. If anyone else is questioning if they should insulate I can tell you it will make a BIG difference, I am upset I did not do this earlier. I will add that for those looking for a little spice of life reinsulate when the pipes are hot, it makes for an interesting day.... Basement is no longer 90*, second problem solved. Crown is running at just below 2PSI no water hammer three problems solved.

So on to the questions; First how can I tell if the main float trap is working? I don't think it is. The condensate return lines are on average 75* at end of heat cycle. I would think that these lines should be somewhat warmer. Around the float temps are really strange. The float body is 85.5* but the pipe leading into the top of the float is 92.5 but the T that descends in front of the float is only 85* but most confusing is the horizontal pipe under the float. This pipe ranges from 86* to 115* in the 8” span. Further the pipe that exits the float is only 85*. I am not sure how I can have that large of a temp fluctuations in that small of a space. The two traps that connect to the condensation return east was 153 in 146 out west was 183 in 163 out but I may not be reading these correctly as they seam to fluctuate a lot. FYI temp at the top of the boiler is 165 header is 205 temp at end of supply east is 163 west is 183. Further I have on every forth or so heat cycle a very loud gurgling sound as water is running thru the equalizer pipe which I am assuming should never happen. My layman's guess is the float is not letting the air to escape and the condensate thru thus the steam/condensate is not flowing thru the system properly and when cooling it is creating a vacuum that is causing the condensate to back up in the steam supply line and eventually run back thru the equalizer pipe. I did check all the pipe fall and all seems to be flowing properly, I had to make only one correction and raised a hanger. I also suspect the radiator traps however all but one radiator gets hot. Since I have insulated the supply lines the second floor now gets hot first and the first floor follows. Radiators seem to get hot all the way across. How can I tell if the traps are working? Where can I get repair parts, my local plumbing supply house does not have any?

Should the wet lines be insulated? When we removed the asbestos none of the wet lines were insulated. The insulation stopped at the elbow for the equalizer pipe and the elbows for the end of the supply lines. Is this were I should stop the insulation or should all the pipes be insulated? Also I have seen some pictures on the wall and none of them seem to have insulation on the header and the riser pipe from the boiler. Should these pipes be insulated. I was planning on insulating the supply line from the top of the boiler onward.

I am missing two radiators. One is off the main supply line (before the loop split) and one is off the east loop. Should these lines be connected to the condensate return to close the loop or are thy fine being a dead end. I think I will eventually reconnect these two as we will do a kitchen addition (the one off the east loop goes to the kitchen) and the other that was in the front hall I think I can get to the bath addition if the pipe will have enough fall so this may eventually be a moot point. FYI when selecting the Crown we did an audit for BTU need and went from 188K to 170K (garage heat was removed also).

New boiler. Of course last year when the thing decided to split it was 4 degrees and I had to be in LA on business. Story short did not have a lot of time to think about and research. We reinstalled the wet piping exactly as the old piping was and did not have a Hartford Loop. Do I need to go through the expense of re-piping this summer or do you think I will be fine with the boiler cut off and the automatic water fill? Also the A dimension is about 48” from the bottom of the elbow fitting.

I did not clean the boiler when we installed, now that it has been just about a year should this be done now or is it too late to do? Is it best to do in the summer or should I do it now? Is this something that I should hire out or can I do? FYI I do all the building on my house, everything from woodwork to the slate roof to tile and masonry and I have a hot rod in the garage that I built from scratch so handy but obviously do not have the real world experience for a first time run through.

Also is there a procedure to follow for yearly service. I have read that I should drain the system in the summer. Given that the wet pipes were almost full of mud I want to keep the new piping as clean as possible. For the other DIY's reading I was shocked at how much crap was in the pipes. There is no way running water thru an old system will clean out the mud. If you are thinking that you have plugged pipes don't bother trying to clean them, just replace, it will be better in the long run.

I have attached a picture of a pipe that runs into the floor. It is valved off but can someone tell me what this is for? I can only assume it is some kind of system drain.

Missing things; I have a T with a plug in it that I am confused by. It is on the supply line that runs off the opposite side of the header. It runs up to the second floor bathroom above the front door and only supplies this radiator. It being at the begging of the supply line I don't see how it could be a missing trap, any thoughts. Second I have a plug, no tee it looks to be drilled directly into the supply line on the east loop. The above supply line for the bathroom runs directly above the east loop and where it turns to go into the wall is directly above this plug. Is this for some kind of gauge?

I appreciate any and all advise, thank you in advance.

Jamie Hall

On insulation -- the wet returns do not need to be insulated -- in fact, returns in general really don't need insulation. On the other hand, all the steam carrying pipes around the boiler -- header, main takeoffs, risers, equalizer -- should be. We often show pictures without the insulation just to show how the piping should be done -- and then go back and insulate.

Barnes & Jones ( @Sailah ) can help you with replacement guts or replacement traps for your system. Since it had been running at a higher pressure, you may well need a few. However, if a radiator is heating, and the return is below about 205 or so, the trap is probably working properly.

kaldi

Thank you. I will finish the insulation accordingly. I will contact Saliah for the parts. I am planing to start with the float first before doing any of the radiators.

New England SteamWorks

Be sure and let us know if you need any further help.

kaldi

Still trying to figure out a few things like what is the pipe that goes into the floor for? Also how do I know if the float is bad? I am under the assumption that it is but not sure how to tell. I have a message in to see how much rebuild parts are now. From what I see the float rebuild is relatively straight forward. Any tricks I need to know about? Lastly question on the skimming, since I did not do when boiler was new is this something I should do now?

Jamie Hall

On the skimming -- if the water level in the site glass isn't bouncing more than an inch up and down, don't bother.

nicholas bonham-carter

The oil is probably still in the boiler if no skimming has been done. Do a search here on the subject, and there may be a video.
Some of the wet returns may be buried under the floor, and could be a source of leaking sometime.
If there is not a huge difference in price between the rebuild parts, and a new LWCO, I would just get the new fully assembled one. While you work on that, the boiler will not run and if you have a problem......BRRRRR!—NBC

kaldi

Jamie the water does not bounce much so I take that as a good sign.

kaldi

Nicholas question with the pipe going into the floor this one goes in but doesn’t come out at least anywhere I can see. You are probably right about it being an old pipe. Good call on the rebuild I my wait until spring.

JUGHNE

I have seen pipes like this go into the floor that were connected to the under floor drain system......maybe a way to drain the boiler without water all over the floor.
If an older house that could have been connected to an old abandoned drain system that went into a septic tank or grey water cistern.

If it is part of an old abandoned wet return for the steam system then there should be another end somewhere. Maybe inside a basement stud wall. But with the valve off you apparently don't need it, other wise water would be backing up into the steam mains.

kaldi

You could be right on the drain that is what I suspect. I will be digging up the outside of the basement for water proofing and wall repair so we will see if there is a drain then. As for a return no walls or repaired floor so I think we can rule that out.