3.5 gpf toilets

kcopp

I have building that was plumbed in the mid 80's and originally had 3.5 gpf toilets and all the bathrooms.
A few years back they swapped them out from 1.6 gpf units.
Since then they have had numerous issue w/ clogging on one of the main lines....
Anyone know where I can get these?
Even if I have to go to Canada?

STEVEusaPA

Maybe you just need a different brand/style of 1.6 toilet. I have one toilet in my house that clogs too easily, the others are just fine. I think it's just too tight of a bend.

Leon82

What about the commercial toilets. They have some kind of pressure tank inside the tank

JUGHNE

I have changed out 2 of my 3.5 GPF to 1.6. (elongated bowl BTH)The 1.6 actually flush better than the old 3.5 which were just OK.
The 1.6 are American Standard. The slightly older one "burbs" up a bubble of air as it flushes. The newer one does not and almost flushes like the air assist ones.

But if you have a main line problem and not WC issue then it could be not so good drain line or lack of venting.

Gordy

I have often wondered how older sewer lines say cast iron would put up with the lesser gallons per flush to carry things down the line. Especially Long runs. 1/2the water.

Gordy

..

kcopp

Toilets flush perfectly fine!

It DOWN the sewer line that the problem develops. They need more water to move things through.

JUGHNE

Simple, just flush twice. I instructed my boys to flush before and then again after the paperwork is done!

Leon82

These new toilets you have to hold the hande for a full flush too

Leon82

My aunt's house has a toilet on the landing for the basement stairs. The tank is on the wall connected with a 3 or 4 foot pipe.

That has some flushing force. Can't leave the seat up lol

Paul48

@kcopp

Not trying to be a smartass, but what happens if you put 3.5 gpf toilets back in, and line still clogs? Generally, what doesn't make it to the end of the pipe, is later moved along by hand washing and flushing the toilet without solids. If there isn't a problem with the pipe itself.

Steamhead

Some of the early 1.6 toilets were pretty bad. Which ones are in this building?

kcopp

These are only 2 years old... Kohler Cimmarons. Pretty decent.
If the problem still happens that's "fine". The building management wants me to do this.

Paul48

I remember hearing that people were buying up the 3.5 gpf toilets from Mexico, a long time ago. The requirement for 1.6 gpf , here, is now 26 years old.

Jamie Hall

Generally the low flow toilets flush just fine -- out of sight, out of mind. As has been said, though, the problem is down the line. It depends a lot on the size and slope of the line -- oddly smaller lines are less prone -- and the amount of solid (by which I mean paper or other things of that sort, stop snickering) which is in the flush. Some folks seem to use half a roll of paper, and some put other things down.

Years ago I was responsible for a municipal sewer system which had some low-slope lines which would build up solids. We had flush tanks at the upper ends of those lines (200 gallon tanks with fast opening valves!) to move things along...

hot_rod

Could be a low spot in the line somewhere that causes the problem. Low flush toilets should work on any system with proper pitch in the lines.

Might be wise to send a camera down the line and look for a problem in the Piping

The larger the diameter of the sewer piping the less water area to carry solids

There was talk about 2-1/2” Piping for low flush back when they were first mandated.

We have a dual flush Am STD in our office, sometimes it requires a double flush, trip the low flush and full flush together to empty the flush tank and get a high gallon flush, based on operators discretion

Gordy

Hmmm I think sewer line slope, and length are the killers. Especially length. To easy for the water to disperse under, or around the solids leaving the solids behind. If your lucky baths, showers, dishwasher, laundry sends non solid containing water to move things along between the solids flush.

Maybe the smaller dia sewer pipe concept was to keep the water behind the solids more to keep them moving.

hot_rod

Actually a steep pitch can cause the waters to run away from the solids also

The smaller diameter pipe would allow a deeper water I suppose so the solids stay in the “stream” better

I suppose a clear definition of solids would be in order.

Jamie Hall

hot rod said:

...
I suppose a clear definition of solids would be in order.

This is a family friendly forum, Bob...

gschallert

Even if you could source them, isn't it against code in every state now to install anything less than 1.6?

kcopp

Considering that they were there in the 1st place. The place has a private well and septic system and only has toilets and a couple break room sinks.... I don't think replacing a few toilets will be a problem.
Its just this one section/ branch that has an issue.
Most of them will still be the 1.6.

Solid_Fuel_Man

That's interesting, the Cimmeron is actually one of my fav WC's. Sends water down with seemingly equivalent force as a power flush toilet. 80s so I'd assume PVC/ABS, is the piping accessible where the problem persists?

kcopp

Yes pvc.. 4". Just not a lot of pitch. It runs through a basement that is finished off.
The toilets are not plugging....they are fine.
Just not enough water being used to clean out the building drain.
No showers here.
Only lavs and toilets.

Fred

They make grinding toilets with a waste pump for installations below the waste pipe. Seems like you should be able to find a waste grinder that can be added to the sewer line, before it leaves the building. Just a thought.

HomerJSmith

How many toilets on the 4" line? You will have transport problems with a 1.6 g/f on a 4" soil pipe. It is not so much a problem of pitch as it is the water running around the solids. That's why San Francisco was talking about 2 1/2" lines. Roto Rooter is making a bundle on these 1.6 and 1.28 g/f toilets.

You could look for a plumbing bone yard.

Tell the tenants that the only thing that goes down the toilet is what passes thru them. Disposable diapers and toilet cleaning sponges were the worst.

EBEBRATT-Ed

just a simple electrician, gasfitter, pipefitter and oil burner technician.

never got my plumbing license.

Right now I am happy about it!!!!

HomerJSmith

Well EBEBRATT, you didn't miss much. There are only two thing you need to know to be a successful plumber--1) water flows downhill, 2) paydays on Friday.

Mark Eatherton

http://www.map-testing.com/assets/reports/HETs&Drainline blockages-2012-08-29.pdf

Good REAL bathroom reading....

And BTW Homer, Payday is on the 1st and the 15th and that is NEVER on Friday, and we have pumps that will pump sheit up any hill you got...

It's not rocket science. It's harder than rocket science...

ME

ratio

@HomerJSmith, you forgot "Don't bite your nails"!

Solid_Fuel_Man

@Mark Eatherton that 28 feet is the key to what @kcopp Is speaking of the problem. Also the article notes in "other than residential type" of installations. Exactly the scenario....

HomerJSmith

Mark the last time I talked with you was over lunch many years ago at a conference. I was very impress with you and it doesn't surprise me that you became a leader in the industry.

The reason that payday is never on Friday is because, if you pay them on Friday, your workers never show up on Monday.

I hate old sewer work. Every bacteria and virus, you could possibly think of lives happily there.

JUGHNE

Kcopp : you need the WC's that our 1971 nursing home are replacing with power flushers. The china looks new yet. The tanks look like small upright pianos. The water will flow..5?gallons. Put one on the end of the problem line.
There are still some installed, just drive here to NE, maybe 1200 miles. They would probably be glad to give them away.

If you can find an institution with the same situation they may have some. Regular cleaning keeps the china looking good.

On the bright side, low volume flushing WC's don't have enough water to overflow out of the bowl....for the first flush anyway.

BobC

Do what Al Bundy did, install a Ferguson and the flow will be with you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL2YRDzpTL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqT21Pv1CAs

Bob

ChrisJ

I have 1.6 toilets on a 4" line from 1910 with no problems.

However, I have them biased towards using more water rather than less.

I don't know if it's true of all of them, but both my Kohler which is a POS, and my Gerber which is awesome both don't dump the entire tank in stock configuration. If you dump the entire tank on the Gerber it'll literally flush 3 times in a row.

Point being, with that type of 1.6 you can change flappers and make it use more water if need be.

If yours have the style with the foam on the chain of the flapper swap it out for an adjustable flapper or a full flush one and you'll dump the whole load every flush. It sucks and wastes water, but if it's a necessary evil go with it.

kcopp

"Point being, with that type of 1.6 you can change flappers and make it use more water if need be."

I was hoping to do this but these have the Class 5 flush valves and are not "fixable" I will have to pull these out and install toilets that can be "Field Fixed"...
Its not wasting water if that water needs to be used to get the job done.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I actually scrounged an old 5gal flusher which IMHO is more clog prone than the Kohler class5's. But I bet as suggested you can score any old pre 1985 toilet for more water/flush or get a power flush with a pressurised tank.

Larry Weingarten

Hello, I suppose somebody has to ask the crazy question: Can the main line be replaced with a smaller, smoother chunk of pipe?
Yours, Larry

kcopp

its PVC... That's as smooth as it gets. You cant reduce once it has been increased.
The pipe runs through a finished area.... dry walled area. major disruption to get to.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, What a chore! I looked around and as I'm on the West coast, looked up this recycling place, Urban Ore: http://urbanore.com/ecopark-store/shop/what-we-sell/ in the San Francisco area. Perhaps you have something like it? Anyway, it looks like they have lots of used toilets... probably you could find a few nice old seven gpf ones!

Yours, Larry

Mark Eatherton

HomerJSmith said:

Mark the last time I talked with you was over lunch many years ago at a conference. I was very impress with you and it doesn't surprise me that you became a leader in the industry.

The reason that payday is never on Friday is because, if you pay them on Friday, your workers never show up on Monday.

I hate old sewer work. Every bacteria and virus, you could possibly think of lives happily there.

Thanks for the kudos Homer. I was just razzing you. There are days that the first and the 15th show up on Friday, just not very often. Always trying to boost our image with the industry.

ME

Mark Eatherton

kcopp said:

its PVC... That's as smooth as it gets. You cant reduce once it has been increased.
The pipe runs through a finished area.... dry walled area. major disruption to get to.

Kevin, what come back on the sewer snake when its cleared? If it's female sanitary products, maybe they need to post a note in the rest rooms telling the ladies that disposable means in the trash, not the toilet... I have a rule in all my houses, that the only thing allowed to go in the sewer are urine, feces and TP. PERIOD. Might need to institute the same program on this job.

As for finding a 3.5 GPM toilet, I'm betting that you could modify the flapper so that it double flushes with each use. I've actually inadvertently done it during a service call. It is illegal after all, to install anything more.

ME