Weil McLain GV90+ Gas Boiler 140K BTU's- 3 years young - Temp is dropping on all 3 zones - Need Help

ChristinaLynn

On December 15, right before Christmas the temp started to drop on all 3 zones when set at 70 degrees. It was still warm outside at 35 degrees and system was failing. The baseboards were luke warm and I heard gurgling sound at the boiler. Went down checked pipes they were still warm. During the night temp continued to drop and in the morning the pipes downstairs were cold. The boiler sounded like a car idling but I no longer heard water leaving the boiler and running through the pipes. Temp inside the boiler was oscillating between 167 and then would kick on and go up to set temp of 200, so the boiler was on but the water wasn't being pushed out. The outside gauge on the boiler read only 135 degrees. At that point I had no heat at all as pipes were cold. By the afternoon all of a sudden I heard water rushing through the pipes and all 3 thermostats rose to 70 to what they were set at. The gauge outside the boiler at that point was 185. Everything was fine from December 15 through Christmas - The day after Christmas it started to happen again and lasted until Wednesday then again heard water rushing through pipes and the heat rose to set temperature of 70 degrees. Outside Temp was "18 degrees". The heat remained at 70 all this week with windchill factor at 0 degrees outside. This afternoon it is happening again, all 3 thermostats are down to the low 60's and dropping as I write this. Temps tonight are going down to 0. Just to note - I did call a plumber who came out the first time, but said this boiler is complicated because it is a GV90+ as opposed to a CGA and said he needed to read my manual and left. I called Weil Mclain directly and they wanted the plumber to call their tech guys while he was at the boiler so they could walk him through trouble shooting - to-date he never called me back from when he left my home. I spoke to another plumber who also said he never worked on these new type boilers. This boiler was installed 3 years ago. I also added new baseboards 2 years ago around all exposed walls. The boiler is definitely capable or it would not have maintained 70 degrees with 0 windchill. Not sure why this is happening or what I should do? Should I lower the thermostats to allow the boiler to shut off for a little? - I'm afraid it will crash and stop working altogether.

Thank you.

Gordy

Sounds like possibly air in the system. What is the system pressure on the gauge when at ambient?

ChristinaLynn

ChristinaLynn

This is the reading right now. Hard to take pic piping in the way. This is at an angle - the temp is actually 135 not 140 and PSI is 30

Gordy

Psi should be 12-15 at ambient. The boiler, and system are hot right now, but 30 is high even so. If the expansion tank is properly sized it should maintain the 12-15 with only a slight pressure increase when hot.

The relief valve on the boiler is designed to realease for 30 psi. So either the gauge is off, or the relief valve could be fouled.

Some pics of the boiler, and it’s associated piping will help. Is there an air separator? Is the expansion tank a bladder/diaphragm type?, or is it a compression tank in the floor joist area?

Is the water feeder to the boiler on?

Pics please I know some of this is not in your knowledge base.

Gordy

From your description I highly suspect air in the system, but could be other issues to.

ChristinaLynn

Will upload pics in few - heading downstairs
brb

kevink1955

I do not see it as 30psi, I see 13 or so (the white pointer) the red is a limit pointer where the relief should dump, As said we need some pics of boiler piping from about 4 feet back. can you tell if the circulator pump is running??

Gordy

RIght you are the picture didn’t upload when i posted only text..

HVACNUT

You're at about 13 psi in the pic. That's fine.
The red pointer is on 30.
Weird all 3 happen at the same time. Could be electrical.
Do you have an indirect on priority?

ChristinaLynn

Gordy

Need the boiler piping from back a ways

ChristinaLynn

Its blocking me from posting pics. I took 10 pics have 9 more to post. Only allowing 1 every 60 seconds or more???

ChristinaLynn

Gordy

Yes you can post all in one post. It will block you as it’s a spam protection.

ChristinaLynn

These are the rest of the pics - sorry it took so long - wouldn't let me upload

ChristinaLynn

I misread it - I read above the white instead of below it - my error

Gordy

One thing that jumps out is those pumps should have been mounted with the motor horizontal. The way they are traps air in the volute, and can damage the bearings, and reduce flow.

I don’t see an air separator.

Do you hear gurgling in the baseboards when there is a call for heat? When the pumps first kick on in that zone?

ChristinaLynn

All 3 zones are on red - calling for heat. I lowered my thermostats to the temps they fell to which is the low 60's right now to see if it will at least maintain that temp.

Gordy

I should note that taco allows such an orientation of the pump only if system psi is 20 or more. You don’t need that high of pressure for your system though.

Gordy

Is the baseboard gurgling? Is it getting warm? If so part way? All the way?

ChristinaLynn

I hear gurgling in the boiler. not the baseboards. They are luke warm - usually when they are working it sounds like the house is creaking because the metal is expanding when the hot water flows through. Then I know my system is working - if I hear nothing then something is very wrong as far as the baseboards. I believe there is an air separator but not sure - Im going to send a pic - brb.

Gordy

Adjusting the thermostat does no good. If there is air in the system which I suspect you won’t get proper flow if any to the baseboards.

kevink1955

Looks like the control is attempting to run all 3 zone pumps (that are by the way mounted the wrong way) can you tell if the pumps are running?? I do not know if there is any electronic sequencing in that Taco control but you might try turning the power to the boiler and control off for 10 seconds then turn it back on and see if it helps

Gordy

I suspect air in the volute of those pumps. Reducing flow.

Gordy

It amazes me how some installers can’t think like air, and water, or read instructions.........

ChristinaLynn

I think this is the air separator? These are the 3 zones - marked Living room, Second Floor and Family room

Gordy

Is the vent on top of the air separator open? Should be a little cap on end of the right angle piece. Like a valve stem cap on a tire only brass. Right to close/tighten left to loosen/ open. If it’s closed open it may hear air hiss out of it.

Are the pumps running?

Do you hear gurgling at the pumps?

ChristinaLynn

I actually was going to do that - turn the system off so that maybe it would reset itself? But then was afraid I would make things worse. So I lowered the temps on the thermostats instead. I'll try shutting the system off.

kevink1955

Wish I could help more, the New Year party is to wild to keep the laptop open. Hope you get it going, it's 9 degrees here

ChristinaLynn

Its 9 degrees here too - im in NJ

ChristinaLynn

I'll check - will I be able to see the vent open? I'll try and look. I don't think I hear it at the pumps - I though inside the boiler. But Im heading down to look more closely and listen - brb

ChristinaLynn

Not sure if it is open? This is a side pic. I can't get around to take a better pic. The temps are continuing to drop on the thermostats. The boiler keeps turning on and off as soon as the temp inside lowers to about 167 and then it kicks on. gurgling is in the boiler. I hope I can find a plumber who is will to work on the GV90 - I wish I still had my very old boiler 30+ years worked great - weil mclain CGA but it got submerged during the hurricane. Thank you for talking with me and trying to help -

ChristinaLynn

Thank you everyone for help me - stay warm - have a Happy New Year!!!! If you know of anyone in NJ - please let me know when you get a chance - thank you

Gordy

Use the find a contractor on the main page.

ChristinaLynn

Will do. I started to hear water through the pipes and I turned the thermostats back up to 70 after reading what you said that it doesn't help to turn them down and I realized I wouldn't know if anything changed if I kept them down at 63 other than seeing if it was maintaining that temp. One zone reached 68 but the other is still at 65 - maybe air is trapped in more in that zone? Previously over the years when I've had plumbers come out they would tell me that since my boiler fired up after shutting it off and pipes felt warm downstairs that its my old house with drafts or probably lack of insulation and that the system can't keep up and they would leave. They said that its a self contained system and it doesn't need to be bled. But this time I took pictures of all 3 thermostats at 70 degrees with dates when it was only 13 degrees outside so that they could see that it does keep up and then may be willing to look further. A few days ago I tried purchasing an infrared thermometer so I would have a reading at the baseboards to prove to that something was wrong even though my boiler fires up. But the plumbing supply store said they didn't have any. Not even sure how much they cost. When I call I'll explain the entire situation, because it may appear to be working at that moment when its really not since this is intermittent. I wonder how air gets in there if it is self contained? I wasn't sure what to turn at the air vent. Your right it feels like the tire valve but there's no cap and wasn't sure what to turn? There's a large nut at the neck - is that what I turn? I think there's a small nut that's screwed all the way in at the stem. its a very tight area - hard to see. I wish it could be this simple to have the air released at that area. Maybe the air vent needs to be replaced so this doesn't continue to happen after it is bled? Thank you again for your help. I appreciate your time more than I can say.

ChristinaLynn

I will also mention about the mounting of the pumps as well. This is unnerving with the temps in the single digits - thanks again

HVACNUT

The tridicator and PRV might be bad if you hear gurgling in the boiler. Like percolating? It might be at 0 pressure and moving water when the boiler cools.
You'll need to check psi with another gauge. It's a B&G brass PRV. Does it have a manual lever?
Shut down the boiler for a half hour, then purge each zone separately while using fast fill on the PRV.

** Is the manual valve before the PRV on? It should be.

ChristinaLynn

Is the bell shaped brass the Pressure Relief Valve? There's a lot of shut off valves attached throughout. Also that part at the side of the boiler - does that release air? the silver one?

ChristinaLynn

The reason I ask is that when he first came out weeks ago he was sitting at the side of the boiler saying that he found that the silver tank can release air and since only a little came out when he turned the screw he felt it probably doesn't have air in the system? That was the last I spoke with him - he was going to read the manual and call Weil McLain. Each time this happens when I finally hear water running again it almost sounds like a pop sound downstairs and a gushing of water rushing through the system as if something was stuck and cleared and then it works for a week or more and happens again. I learned that when one zone's temp starts to drop at the thermostat eventually the other two are affected.

ChristinaLynn

I'm not sure where the manual valve is before the PRV? If you describe it more I'll go check - want to make sure before I turn anything Im at the right location. - Sorry I wish I knew more about this. Thank you.