Problem? New steam boiler

Boro

Hi, have old house with old steam boiler changed because boiler from 30 years old was cracked. They put in new steam boiler two days ago, weil mclean, same BTU as old boiler.

Is this - a problem? I sit on a chair in the basement with pen and paper for one hour and watch. In this morning took 4 hours for house temperature to move 63 to 70 degrees. With old bioler, no matter what the boiler was turned on until it to temperature on thermostat, then the boiler shut off. With new boiler when it begins, boiler goes 10 mins, I watch meter and PSI moves to 5 and click I hear the boiler stops. The PSI moves down and in 6 min, is 0. Then click and the boiler begins and on 10 mins, stop for 6 mins, on 10 mins, stop for 6 mins, 10, 6, 10, 6 ... I check all radiators are hot all way to the vents to the end. Vents for radiators are new from february 2017.

The contractor tells me the oil needs to bleed from the cast iron in the boiler when customer first uses. Two weeks later they tell me they will come back and they will wash the boiler and then the boiler will heat like it is supposed. Is this a problem?

Thank you
Boro

ChrisJ

What's shutting the boiler down?

Is it shutting down on pressure? Is it shutting down on low water?

5 PSI is way too high, even on the inaccurate useless gauge that comes with the boiler. That should be shutting down at no more than 2 PSI.

To an extent, what the contractor said is true, it takes a long time to get all of the oil out of the new boiler and piping. In fact, 2 weeks may not be long enough but I'd want it skimmed now to start.

If you show us pictures of the installation we can be a lot more help.

Include pictures clearly showing all 4 sides of the boiler as well as all of the piping around and above the boiler.

Jamie Hall

At least four problems, maybe more -- which your installer should have taken care of.

First, what is the pressure controller set for? If the pressure is really going up to 5 that's way too high -- but the required 30 psi gauges are none too accurate. Can you describe what the scales on the pressure controller are set for? Or better yet, take a picture of it and post that.

Second, did anyone take the trouble to measure the actual total radiation in the house, or did they just swap in a new boiler the same size as the old. If the radiators are hot all the way across, and the boiler is cycling the way you say it is, that new boiler is about half again as big as it needs to be, which is a shame.

Third, the new boiler should have been skimmed when it was installed, not wait two weeks. And it doesn't need to be washed, it needs to be skimmed. Quite different. I hope your installer knows the difference.

Fourth, that setback. 7 degrees is too much for a steam system (or, for that matter, almost any system except forced air). In this weather it doesn't surprise me one little bit that it takes four hours to recover. Try a 3 degree setback -- or perhaps none at all.

steamhouse

It sounds normal. Did they skim upon installation? If rads are hot all across it sounds like the system is working in these temperatures. You could ask them to skim prior to the two weeks stated. New boilers contain a ton of oil.

kevink1955

All in all it looks good compared to some we have seen here. What gauge are you seeing the 5 on, the lower 0 to 30 or the upper one. looks like you have a mercury pressuretrol, if that is what is shutting it down you should see the mercury shift from 1 end to the glass bulb to the other. Otherwise it may be the low water cutoff cycling it, A good skim may help that.

Fred

What sounds normal here? Where are you guys seeing pictures? A boiler replaced with the same size boiler is likely over-sized, if they didn't do an EDR survey. There is nothing normal about 5PSI pressure. It should cut off at 2PSI max. Radiators that heat all the way across is not a measure of a proper installation. Yes it provides heat but so does a raging fire. Come on guys!

Jamie Hall

What @Fred said... please read my earlier post.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't see any pictures. No one want's to skim more than once. I usually don't skim until it runs a few days myself. 2 weeks is a bit much but I could live with that if everything else is right.

Unfortunately sound like another oversized boiler.

The other thing and we have been round and round on this before is dare I say pic-up factor. We are putting 33% extra output into a system. When it's cold out and the boiler is running a lot the piping is hot already. During mild weather you have plenty of capacity.

I don't advocate pickup should be eliminated. I think it needs to be adjusted on a case x case basis

adambnyc

5 bucks says you have a cycleguard lwco on that boiler

JohnNY

adambnyc said:

5 bucks says you have a cycleguard lwco on that boiler

That thing should be against the law.

Boro

Thank you. Many helpful people!

First, yes, from now on I set thermostat 70 in day, 67 at night. Only 3 degree of change. No longer set at 63 at night.

Maybe contractor skim when installation, not sure.

Contractor no look at radiators or house, only BTU of old boiler. Now is Weil Mclean EG40.

Boiler is not shutting down for the water level, I see the water level good level in the glass.

With 3 degree of change in temperature on the thermostat in the morning each time the boiler is on, in 10 mins time the PSI round dial moves to 5 pounds, click, shut off. Wait 6 mins and PSI dial moves to 0. Then click the boiler is on. Goes many times before temperature is 70.

I see top square guage on the right part points to 2 pounds. I watch PSI dial gauge in ten minutes move from 0 to 5 pounds and click boiler stops.


front. left Red shut off electric temporly on boiler, contractor electrician will install permanent in this week or next week.

right.back


Pipes




Many thanks !
Boro

neilc

adjust your pressuretrol from 2, down to 0.5,
(adjustment screw on top, above scale)
check under the cover for the offset,
its a white dial, set it down to 1,
(betting its at 2 or 3 right now)
caution, power inside, shut switch off, be safe, turn back on,
pressure should cycle fro around 1/2, up to 1.5, roughly

Fred

I have to assume the old boiler did the same short cycling. If it was the same size as this one, the end result is going to be the same, more short cycling. You need to calculate the total EDR of your radiators and compare that to the Sq. Ft. of Steam on the Boiler plate. Depending on how much the boiler is over-sized, the installer may be able to down fire it a bit.

adambnyc

Does that LWCO say “cycleguard” on it? If so, that LWCO will cut the boiler every 10 minutes regardless of pressure.

Fred

Looks like a Safegard.

MilanD

Boro, I hope you can read the following: nadam se da se nisam prevario i da ovo možete da pročitate.

Jel ovo jednocevni ili dvocevni sistem?

U kom ste gradu i koja je sad temperatura napolju? Sad kad je puno hladno, moze da se desi da bojler pravi više pare i toplotne energije nego što radiator može da oslobodi. Pogotovo ako diže temperaturu i kući za više od 3 stepena F. Takodje, ako je bojler prevelik za sistem, sigurno će praviti previše pare nego sto sistem može da upotrebi, i to će dizati operativni pritisak u bojleru.

Uz sve sto je navedeno gore, može pomoći veći i bolji glavni ventil tzv. "main vent". On se nalazi na glavnoj cevi u podrumu posle poslednjeg priključka za radiator. Da li imate taj ventil? Na vašoj pretposlednjoj slici se vidi ventil na zglobu gde cev ide vertikalno ka podu prema bojleru. Ako je to jedini ventil, on je premalog kapaciteta i novi i bolji se mora instalirati.

Treba izmeriti i izračunati radiacioni kapacitet radijatora i uporediti sa veličinom (kapacitetom) bojlera. Ako se uspostavi da je bojler prevelik, bojler koji vi imate moze da primi dvofazni ventil za gas, tzv. "2-stage gas valve", koji može da modulira plamen u visoki i niski. To bi pomoglo da se kroz moduliranje količina plamena modulira kolicina pare koja se pravi u bojleru, maltene kao šerpu sa ključajućom vodom na šporetu. Kad se pritisak podigne na, recimo 0.5 psi, plamen se smanji i ako pritisak padne na 0.1, opet se uključi jak plamen i tako dok god termostat drži bojler uključen. Ovo bi takodje uštedelo gas.

Što se tiče bojler, s obzirom da je nov i da se ne vidi tzv "skim port", instalater verovatno nije skimovao vodu u bojleru. Sad dok još ne zapeče, skim port moze da se instalira umesto čepa koji se nalazi iza izolacije koja se vidi levo od prekidača za struju. Umesto čepa tu se stavi cev od 20-30 cm sa poklopcem. To služi za tzv. skimming. Skimming se mora uraditi na novim bojlerima 2-3 dana nakon instalacije zarad optimalnog funkcionisanja bojlera.

Pozdrav,
Milan

Gordo

The overall "near boiler piping" looks good. I, for one, am glad to see that.

As others have said, that pessuretrol may need to be turned down. It looks like the "cut-in" is 2 psi. It should be set to 0.5 psi.
And the little white wheel on the inside should be set to "1".

There is a skim tapping plug that looks like it was never removed. Usually, we remove it and install a 1-1/2" x 8" nipple and a cap to make skimming easier.

ChrisJ

The lwco looks like a black Safeguard to me. Looks like it even says Safeguard on it?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Gordo

LOL
I was thinking the same as you on the piping. We see so few that are right TG, looks like the installer knew what he was doing. I actually sighed in relief when I saw that (expecting the worst)

AMservices

Change your main air vent. Looks like it's seen more then 2 new boiler installed down there. And if the radiator air vents are from the same generation, change them too.
If your air vents are junk, you can't vent air faster then you can make steam, then you will be building pressure quicker then you can say "short cycle.

AMservices

Sorry,
Just went back and read that you changed the rad vents already.
Not home cheapo's I hope?

LouisFournier

Yeah looks like a good swap out, no problem with install. The steam main appears to be 2" which is most likely under sized. Homeowner should be very happy with installation Header and equalizer also appear to be properly sized. the pressuretrol on this boiler is not the most accurate, open up the cover and check the number on the white dial might need to be turned down from the picture provided its probably set at 3 or 4. As for your setback the higher the better. Think about it, if you have no setback the boiler will cycle more often, every time you ask the boiler for heat it actually runs 10-15 minutes before you feel any heat from the radiation and when it shuts off you have a hunk of 212 degree cast iron in the basement (not where you need the heat). I'm a big fan of shutting the system down if you do not need it. On demand baby!!!

Boro

Thank you everybody!

Fred. Old boiler did not short cycle. And it is now Safeguard Low water...

NeilC. Thank you , .5PSI, I will talk to the contractor. Thank you

Milan D. Thank you for your very detailed entry. And I will check and replace that main vent, yes I see it. I will speak to the contractor with your points, when he comes to skim the boiler. And .5 PSI, yes... thank you

Gordo. Good to know about piping, thank you. And about the skim tapping plug. And yes, the main vent will be changed. Thank you.

So much appreciate...
Boro

MilanD

Boro, get this vent (link below), there is no better. I have 3 of them on my system. It vents 2 times faster than Gorton 2, and some 4 times faster than Hoffman 75, for same cost. With your setup, you will have to repipe the end of the main by the boiler, but that should not be a problem. If you have only 1 main, put 2 on the end. If you have 2, put at least 1 on each, possibly 2. Depends on the size of your main. Form the pictures it looks like 2" main and 1.5" return.

https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/barnes-and-jones-big-mouth-air-vent