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Relocation of loop.

Hey folks,
Couldn't find a definitive answer on relocation. So I'll ask it here.
1,000 sq.ft. Bungalow built around 1915.
1-pipe Steam.
I wanted to relocate the loop to one side of the basement. (Left side of photos)
Both branches on the right side of the photo would be lengthened to go over the carrying beam.
My ultimate goal is to have the right side completely clear of all pipes so I can make office space on that side of the basement.
Picture in Blue is what I have currently.
Picture in Red is what I'm aiming for.
Also not sure about venting on the main loop.
Measurements are approximate.
I also figured out the EDR of my radiators, but can't seem to find a calculation for the EDR of the piping. And any additional calculations for boiler sizing as I will be replacing the boiler next year.
Thinking about either Slant-Fin or Weil-Mclain, both atmospheric burners.
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,046
    No reason why it shouldn't work...

    Except. Watch the pitch, size and length of those new, much longer laterals. You may find you need to lower the main -- in fact, you probably will need to -- on the side of the loop closer to the beam, unless you can raise the ends of the laterals where they turn up to go upstairs enough.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,708
    That section of Main, at the "Back" should have a vent after the radiators. The vent you have on the 'Front of that loop is not necessary. Just vent the main where you have the Vent(s) nearest the boiler, before it drops to the wet return.
  • Agree with @Jamie Hall . All depends on the pitch. Well, the pitch and you have to make sure the new longer run-outs are sized for the connected load after the added length.

    But you'll still have those two run-outs on the right side so it won't be free of pipes, right?
    Serving Rhode Island & Eastern Massachusetts
    Old Houses & Steam Heat Our Specialty
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 91
    I assume this is a 1 story house?

    Minor point, but you'll probably have to adjust your radiator vent sizes to balance the proposed system. Old system looks like all the run outs are about the same length so theoretically 1 vent size on all radiators might keep it balanced. Proposed plan has varying lengths so you might have to compensate with the vent sizing to keep it balanced.
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 4,548
    There is a handy chart on pg 98 of the old TLASH on the capacity of steam lines vs pitch where the condensate flows against the steam. Looking at those numbers he should be able to bury those 14 ft steam runouts between the 2x8 floor joists with careful planing. the takeoff's from the main sb at 45 degrees and using a size larger pipe would be good insurance.

    I would place all the radiator takeoffs on a single main and use the second as a dry return because it helps with the pitch problem.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Phil53Phil53 Member Posts: 25
    Kind of a small system. I think Burnham makes the smallest gas boiler and Weil may be the next smallest, Weil would probably work though.
  • brandonfbrandonf Member Posts: 7
    The run-outs currently are well up between the joists so my pitch looks good.
    Yes, 1 story unit.
    2-story building.
    1st floor is a storefront with it's own modern HVAC.
    Basically a bungalow 12 feet above ground level.
    So each branch goes 12 feet vertical up the walls.
    The main is about 2-1/4 OD from my guesstimate.
    The branch runs appear to be about 1-3/4 but dont hold me to that.
    The EDR of my radiation is 187.
    I don't know the EDR of the piping.
    House has 9 foot ceilings, and blown-in insulation in walls and attic.
    I didn't look at Burnham yet, I nixed Slant/Fin last night after I noticed their smallest boiler was still way too big.
    Current boiler is a badly installed, leaky 20+ year old Peerless oil converted to gas power burner with a steam rating of 177,000 btus. =Just a bit excessive.
    I'm tired of $400 gas bills on such a small house.
  • Chris_LChris_L Member Posts: 76
    What BobC suggests is how my house was built, and it works fine.

    Rather than running a main loop from the front of the house back to the boiler, just put all the run-outs on the other main. Leave the vent on the end of the main, and run a dry return back to the boiler. (You might also want to put a separate main in to serve the two radiators at the back of the house.)

    That way, you have a lot less main to heat up and less distance for the steam to travel before it reaches the radiators on the right side and back of your house.

    As others have noted, you'll need to carefully consider your pipe sizes, especially as it looks like you have two radiators on some run-outs,
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 91
    I agree with @BobC on getting the lost art of steam heating as a reference. It has lots of best practices outlined. You may have to upsize those run outs since they go up to the second floor.

    Have you considered adding radiators to the first floor and loosing the forced air so you can better match your boiler size?
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • brandonfbrandonf Member Posts: 7
    Lost art book is on order. (Better late than never.)
    First floor storefront is a separate commercial space, so it's better to leave that alone since it's newer forced hot air/ac.
    Boiler is getting replaced next year, the wrong size is the least of it's problems. Haha.
    I'll post some boiler pics when I get home, it's pretty sad.

    So it's better to have one straight main front to back and have a dry return front to back?
    Would the return be the same size?
    Would I pipe in a down facing tee near where the runouts meet the mains and connect the down facing fitting to the dry return?
    (Not even sure if I worded that right) haha
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 91
    Here's a website you can use to calculate heat loss from uninsulated and insulated horizontal pipes:

    https://checalc.com/calc/inshoriz.html

    From what I've read most designers use a percentage of the horizontal pipe loss to account for fittings. Like 10-15%.

    Definitely sit down and read the lost art when you get it. As others have pointed out, the devil is in the pipe details for 1-pipe systems.

    Do you plan on doing the work yourself?
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • brandonfbrandonf Member Posts: 7
    Well I love reading about this stuff and I find it fascinating.
    I think I could probably do it myself with a little more research.
    Although if New England SteamWorks gives me a good estimate I might be persuaded to sit this one out.
    Their work looks top-notch.
    Luckily I have till next fall to think about it.
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,708
    Hey, if you can get @New England SteamWorks , do it! He is top notch and will make sure you are set up the best way possible. Worth his weight in gold (and he's 650 lbs) >:)
  • Hey! I am at 575lbs now! My new Pilates program! :)
    Serving Rhode Island & Eastern Massachusetts
    Old Houses & Steam Heat Our Specialty
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • brandonfbrandonf Member Posts: 7
    I thought pilates died once they created Zoomba. Lol. Here are some pics of my death row boiler. Might take a while to pick out all the wrong because there's not much right.
  • Ouch. Classic Cut & Paste job...
    Serving Rhode Island & Eastern Massachusetts
    Old Houses & Steam Heat Our Specialty
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • brandonfbrandonf Member Posts: 7
    Sadly.
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