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Steam heating woes. Advice needed

ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
edited November 27 in THE MAIN WALL
Hello all!

Similar to many other posters on this message board, I am a new homeowner who is trying to wrangle a steam heating system for the first time. Posts made on this message board have been beyond helpful in regards to increasing my understanding of the steam heating system in my home. Despite my increased knowledge, I would still like to get the opinions of the several experts on this board in regards to some issues I am having with my heating system.

Some background info on the system/house in general :

-The boiler is an "American Standard" , which must be ancient. Despite it's age, the boiler works near perfectly, or so previous HVAC people who used to service the unit have said.

-The home has two large radiators on the first floor and 4 smaller ones on the second

- The steam vents on the radiators are predominantly Hoffman 40 A's , with the exception of 2, both located on the second floor. The other two vents are also Hoffman made but are adjustable (not sure of the model number).

-The system would be considered "one pipe" , to my knowledge. All pipes that I can see in the basement are pitched back towards the boiler.

-The system appears to lack what is considered a "main vent". It is possible that it used to have one because the main pipe in the basement has a small offshoot section of pipe that appears to have been capped and currently serves no purpose.

-All radiators have been pitched towards the valve.

Main problems with the heating system in it's current state:

-Clanging noise in the main pipe, and subsequently all pipes, while the system is running. It sounds as if there is a screw or nut that has fallen into the pipe and reverberates throughout the whole system, being carried back and forth by condensate and water. From what I have read, it is possible that a part of the valve on one of the radiators has come loose and has fallen into the pipe.

- Several of the steam vents spit water (but not all of them). I tried replacing these steam vents to no avail ; they still spit. When I lower the water level in the boiler this problem becomes much less pronounced, but does not completely go away in one of the radiators (more on this later)

-Regular water hammer that can be heard at the majority of the radiator valves

-Extremely slow heating of two radiators on the second floor, located back to back against the same wall. These radiators also create a *ton* of noise. Grinding, water hammer, etc. It seems like these two suffer from an improperly pitched pipe under the floorboards, seeing as the are most likely fed by the same pipe. One of these radiators is also the one that constantly spits (see above) despite having a lowered amount of water in the boiler. Unfortunately, one of these radiators is in my bedroom and always wakes me up.


What I have done to try to diagnose these problems, albeit unsuccessfully:

-I checked the pitch of the main pipe in the basement. I suspected that settling of a house as old as ours could cause the pipe to lose it's pitch. It is still pitched correctly, but barely. The level shows that the pipes are pitched in the right direction, but to me it seems that the pitch should be more obvious to the eye, or more "aggressive", but who knows.

-As stated earlier, I replaced the vents on several of the radiators. This made no discernible difference in the operation of the radiators and didn't seem to help much of anything. I suspect the original Hoffman vents were working just fine.

-I repacked the valves on several of the radiators with graphite packing. This stopped a very small leak on one of them, but didn't do much else. All problems still present, including tons of noise.

I have attached a bunch of pictures to this thread. Any and all suggestions are welcome in regards to making this heating system run better! Thanks to all the pros on here that take time out of their days to help all of us out.

-Ian











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Comments

  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    PS

    In one of the pictures you can see that the visible water level has dropped to well below the marked line on the glass. This picture was taken while the boiler was operating
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    You have the steam main going out to rads. Do you have any smaller pipes returning to the boiler?? (dry or wet returns, only about a 1/3 the size of the main?)

    Back up and get pictures of the entire boiler showing all pipes from floor to ceiling. You may have a counter flow system.
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 92
    From one homeowner to another that was in a similar situation as you, I recommend you get the book "We Got Steam Heat!", or, if you are one that wants more technical details "Lost Art of Steam Heating." (if you haven't already). They're available on amazon and this on site. They're great resources to help you understand your steam system.
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Ihoop, that plug in the picture was most likely where a leaking main air vent was. The wood has been wet/stained at that location. IIWM, I would apply soak it some PB blaster at least twice.....don't get any type of oil inside the piping.
    Then get it loose, put it back in not so tight until you get a main vent.
    What is the length and size of that main to that point?
    Is that the only main you have?
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,059
    Several thoughts right away -- I'd not be a bit surprised if there had been a main vent where you describe. Not a bad place for one. Clearances are a little tight, but you can probably figure a way to get a Gorton #2 in there, one way or another. Which I'd suggest instead of a BigMouth, as it is better able to handle any water which might get there.

    Second, I'd not be surprised if the pitch on the main was inadequate, particularly since it may well be counterflow (more on that in a moment here). That said, it may be difficult to get more pitch on it.

    Third, someone will probably comment on the near boiler piping, which isn't ideal and which might be causing more water than is needed to get into the mains -- which might have something to do with the spitting. However, if you can correct the water hammer without playing with the near boiler piping, I would do that, since it is working at least after a fashion!

    Fourth, and obvious -- be sure and check the pressuretrol for a correct setting, and it would do no harm to make sure the pigtail is clear. The picture though seems to show that the setting is reasonable.

    Fifth, on those two noisy radiators. I'd not be a bit surprised if one or both of them had a horizontal bit of runout -- which may not have enough pitch, or may be pitched the wrong way. That may be the source of a lot of the hammer. Worth looking at anyway.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    Thank you all for the replies so far!

    It seems as though my suspicion about the main vent placement may be correct. At this point in time, what could I gain from installing a main vent on the tip of the aforementioned pipe? More importantly, why was it ever removed in the first place?

    I'll try to take more pictures of the boiler later today. I don't believe there are any smaller pipes returning to the boiler but I will double check.

    @Jamie Hall

    You say that the two noisy radiators may have had a horizontal bit of run out.....What do you mean by this? And, how would I check this?

    Thanks!!!!

    -Ian

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,059
    What I was thinking about those two radiators is that if they are sort of back to back, I'd kind of think that one or the other of them has to have some more or less horizontal pipe from the riser. If that pipe is pitched the wrong way, it could give you a lot of noise.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    From looking at the surrounding wood, the old vent was leaking and spitting water/steam. Vents fail with age. The simplest quick fix was to plug the hole.
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    edited November 27
    Two obvious issues that I see, right off the bat.
    1. That Pressuretrol is mounted on a pigtailthat is upside down. The pigtail can't hold water to protect the Pressuretrol from steam. Get a pigtail that is correct or fittings that will allow you to turn that one upright. Hopefully the Pressuretrol hasn't been ruined by steam.
    2. The second issue is that pigtail/Pressuretrol is mounted on a 1/4" tapping on that McDonnell Miller #67 Low water cut off. I'm betting that pigtail, albeit upside down, is clogged and, if the Pressuretrol is still functional, it can't see the actual system pressure because the pigtail is clogged. I had that same configuration and, if you leave it there, you need to clean the pigtail a couple times a season.
    3. Raise the water level back to about middle of the glass. It is so low now that I would expect the boiler to shut down frequently, tripped by the LWCO. Every time it shuts down, you are not producing a steady flow of steam to feed the radiators.
    4. Finally, when you replace that pigtail, buy a 4' to 6" nipple and raise that pigtail up. As it looks now, when the water level is where it should be, the Pressuretrol may well be below the boiler's normal water line, again rendering the Pressuretrol useless.
    I guess that's more than a couple issues but it is what it is :)
    And BTW, do put a good, large vent at that location that has the plug in it.
  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    What benefits will I get by adding a main vent since the system is currently functioning without one? Less hissing noise from the actual radiators as the system begins to heat?

    Also, It sounds as though my only option with the two noisy radiators is to get under the floorboards to try and correct the pitch in the faulty pipe, correct? In this case, could I entertain the idea of raising both these radiators a half inch or so of the ground to see if the pitch could be corrected without having to get under the floor?

    Is there anything I can do to increase the pitch of the main pipe in the basement? As I said before, while the pitch is present, it is almost non existent....I would be hard pressed to believe that increasing the pitch of this pipe would make the system function worse.
  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    @Fred

    Thanks for all your advice! Strangely enough, the pressuretrol does seem to function....When the pressure of the entire system goes above 1.5-2 I can hear the boiler shut off.
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 4,552
    edited November 27
    If the two radiators are fed by a common riser that means if you raise one you will lower the other because each is fed by one leg of a T fitting and a piece of pipe. Do have any idea of how long each of those pipe is?

    If the runs are long enough you might be able to rais both of them a little bit because a length of pipe has some flex.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    The rad vents are overworked, a reason that they hiss.
    Main venting should be doing most of the air removal from the main steam pipes. Now all air must get out the small rad vents.

    A Gorton # 2 main vent will vent 26 times the air of one Hoffman 40 A .
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 92
    Ian, putting a main vent in will help heat those upstair radiators faster relative to the first floor radiators. Without a main vent, the radiator vents have to do all the work of removing the air from the system. So the radiators with the shortage pipe path to the boiler do their "job" quicker and heat up faster, and the farthest radiators lag behind because there is more pipe to empty of air.

    Whoever worked on the system before you put the Hoffman 1As (the adjustable vents) on the second floor radiators because a 1A can vent faster (if on setting 3-6) than the Hoffman 40's on the other radiators in an effort the balance the system and make up for the lack of a main vent.
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    edited November 27
    @ihoop88 Are you sure it is the Pressuretrol shutting the boiler down and not the Low water cut-off? Also, do you have a 0-3 PSI gauge on the boiler or the standard 0 - 30PSI. They can be off by 10 pounds and still just show 1.5 PSI.
    Just another FYI, the top line molded into you MM #67 LWCO is actually the low water line that trips the low water cut off. It looks like your current water level is actually at or below that line.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Ian, if I were you I would, before moving pipes around:

    Soak that plug a few times, get it loose. Use 2 wrenches as you could crack that last 90 elbow on the end of the main.

    Order a Gorton # 2 main vent. Post again for install instructions.

    Order a straight copper pigtail.
    Order a 0-3 psi gauge.
    Install both on the same pigtail using tee, 90 etc.

    You have a 0-30 gauge on the front of the boiler that may not give you a good reading.

    And post more pictures as mentioned above.
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 92
    @Fred it looks like he has an embedded compound gauge on the front of the boiler that is +30/-30 psig. Am I seeing that right?
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • adambnycadambnyc Member Posts: 192
    The near boiler piping is really bad. It's gotta be sending a lot of wet steam, which is why the site glass is empty and your getting banging.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 2,852
    I suspect this is a counterflow system. Don't blame the boiler. As a matter of fact give it a kiss for lasting this long.

    Don't know if you can stand back farther and take pictures but it looks like counterflow to me. If it is you desperately need repiping. Where are you located??

    Look someone up in "find a contractor"
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    @EBEBRATT-Ed it is a compound gauge and it does look like it was intended to be a counter flow. I don't see any signs of a wet return around that boiler.
  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    Hi guys,

    I am overwhelmed at the amount of support you guys have all given me so far. Thanks a ton! Every one of you is making me more knowledgeable about steam heat.

    -Several of you have referenced "bad piping" around the boiler. Which part of the piping is "bad" and how could it lead to the boiler creating more wet steam?

    -It seems as though the consensus is that, before I do anything, I should get a Gorton onto that main vent. I will do just that!

    - The two noisy radiators sit back to back against a single wall. If i had to guess the space between them would not be more than 3 feet. So, perhaps the idea of raising them both is a bit unrealistic on my behalf. If I can't raise them I am unsure about what I can do to correct the supposed bad pitch in the pipe feeding these two radiators.

    -The gauge on the boiler is 0-30 PSI. It seems to operate as intended when the boiler is firing but I have know way of actually being sure about this.

    -As far as I can tell there is no wet return to the boiler.

    -Where, specifically, do I need re-piping done on the boiler? I live in Philadelphia and have found somebody who is supposed to be the local steam guru : A man named Chuck who works for Oceans of Water plumbing. He will be coming to give the whole system a look over sometime next week

    -Is replacing the pig tail something that a complete amateur, such as myself, could do with correct instructions?

    More pictures attached. Many thanks to you all!








  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,059
    As I said earlier (I told you others would comment on it!), the near boiler piping is less than ideal. The problem is that the riser from the boiler should come up at least 24 inches, and then go into a header pipe -- preferably a larger pipe -- which is pitched slightly away from the riser. Any steam mains feeding the house should go straight up from the header, and then the header should continue on to a pipe called the equalizer, which goes back down to the return inlet in the boiler. That arrangement separates the steam from the carried over water droplets.

    Your arrangement, with the riser coming up, and then over to a T where the steam main goes up and the equalizer down, usually gets a pretty fair amount of water carried up into the mains -- which can cause water hammer (and is also less efficient).

    That said, however -- if we can figure out what is causing the hammer in those back to back radiators, and get that Gorton on the main, lets do that first and then see where we need to go from there -- if anywhere.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Without any lower pipes returning water to the boiler then you have a counter flow steam main system. Meaning that the steam goes out from the boiler and the condensate water returns in the same pipe flowing back against the flow of steam.
    The steam stays to the top of the pipe while the water runs back on the bottom of the pipe.

    Your steam system must be at least 80 years old, that boiler maybe 30 or so. If this system had made this much noise for that many years, it would have been torn out and replaced with something else......so even though the near boiler piping is not good, there must have been sometime in the past where the operation was tolerable to live with.

    One new item I noticed is in the piping in the 3rd picture you just posted. Sort of looking down a hallway with the steps on the left.
    Assuming that is the steam main and the boiler is behind you??
    It looks like a pretty wavy pipe run. If so then there is a union with a short nipple, galvanized reducing bushing and then a coupling........that reducing bushing will not let the water return (think a drain pipe that you want all the water to come out of), there will be a pool of water left there.
    When the steam comes along and hits that pool of water you could get some serious water hammer.

    You should order the book mentioned above by acwagner.
    The Lost Art of Steam Heating. So when Chuck shows up you may have a better idea of what he is talking about.
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 92
    @ihoop88 , can you give some context to the photo that @JUGHNE referenced? I noticed in that photo that the one pipe hanger for the steam pipe has been pulled out, maybe by whoever did the water plumbing so they could get their line over it. After you've tackled some of the other recommendations given here, check the pitch of your pipes. They recommend for your type of system that the pipes be pitched at least 1" for every 10' of pipe back toward the boiler. With all the pipe supports removed, the pipe might not be pitched enough or in the wrong direction causes some of the hammer you're hearing.

    Also, unrelated to your boiler, I noticed in that photo that your PVC drain pipe appears to pitch down from left to right, but then goes back up with two 45 degree fittings. Maybe it's just the angle of the photo or there are some other unseen pipes, but it appears you have a low spot there that can't drain.
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    As for the pigtail, yes it's a simple change out. buy a brass pigtail that is straight (the tow ends are opposite each other and the loop is in the center). Take the Pressuretrol off, Two wires and a hex fitting that mounts to the old pigtail. Take the old pigtail off of the LWCO, install the new pigtail so that the belly of the loop is down, so that it holds water, pour an ounce or two of water in it and remount your Pressuretrol. The straight pigtail will also give you some additional height so that the Pressuretrol is well above the boiler water line.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Just make sure the opening where the pigtail is installed is clean of any sludge.

    As for the PVC, could that be a radon venting system?
    Should be set up to drain as moisture would condense in any dips impeding the gas venting....not your worry today.
  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    Hey guys,

    Thanks for the advice! The PVC is indeed part of a radon remediation system. Actually, in the referenced picture you can barely see the steam main....It runs through the garage (wall on the right) and then comes out to the front of the basement. I shouldn't have included picture three because it is basically useless! That is my fault.

    Would it be worth re-piping part of a boiler this old to get rid of it's quirks? If the water hammer problem does reside in the poor piping near the boiler I would consider getting some work done on the system... There does seem to be a general wet steam issue all throughout the system....
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    @ihoop88 , Is the part if the main that runs through the garage also un-insulated? While the near boiler piping is an issue, I suspect most, if not all of the hammering may be eliminated by insulating the mains, especially the portion in the garage. It is probably condensing steam so rapidly that it creates an abundance of water in those small mains. As far as re-piping the near boiler, if the insulation eliminates the hammer, I'd probably wait until you are ready to replace the boiler.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    edited November 30
    How about a better picture of that union with the galvanized bushing?
    As I said this must have worked many years or it would not be there. Some cobblejacking of your steam main was done recently and could be the source of your problem.
    The sellers just probably lived with it knowing they were leaving.

    Yes, piping is wrong at boiler, but changing it may not cure your problems. IMO

    Are you in contact with the previous owners? Did they have insulation removed for re-sale purposes? And did they have any pipe repairs where the union/reducer is located?
    Just casual conversation is recommended.
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    That main, on the left is so wavy, in and out, that I can't believe there isn't some wave up and down as well???
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 92
    I think the OP said that wavy pipe isnt part of the steam system. Perhaps a gas line?
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Yes, I was wondering that. It looks to small for steam main now that I look again.
  • ihoop88ihoop88 Member Posts: 9
    Hey All!

    As stated, that wavy pipe is not actually part of the steam heat system in my house.....Sorry, that picture was unnecessary in my previous post.

    The pipe that runs in the garage is actually insulated - the insulation was taken off the main only in the basement. I suspect that this was done many years ago and the sellers never bothered to replaced it....

    @JUGHNE I was not aware that insulating the main pipes would affect anything other than the efficiency of the system. Could insulating the main in that section of my basement really have that large of an effect on the water hammer problem? Also, I am still positive there is something metallic clanging around in the pipes in the basement, like part of a valve that has fallen off. Is there any way to check this other than unscrewing the pipes and taking a look?
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    If you took the bonnet off of each valve and looked for the disc, washer and screw that would hold it there, maybe you will find one missing. Sometimes it could have just fallen down to the 90 elbow below the floor and you could remove it with the flex pick it up/gripper claw tool from any hardware store.
    But getting the bonnets off with out ruining something could be very challenging.

    The low hanging fruit is the main steam air vent and new pigtail with 0-5 PSI gauge. Lower pressure and air venting could change a lot.

    All the piping must drain back to the boiler 1" (or more) for every 10 feet of run. Any dips can cause water hammer. A 4' level is recommended. You may need more hangers as pipe will get a belly sag between supports. I usually double up the number of hangers when working on old steam. You want to get the slope of the pipe corrected before adding insulation.
  • acwagneracwagner Member Posts: 92
    @ihoop88 can you elaborate more on the metallic clanking sound? As in, does it happen just at start up, at the end, or the whole heating cycle? Does it generally come from the middle of a pipe or perhaps where the pipe goes into a wall/floor?

    It's entirely possible that something is in the pipe, but there may be other causes as well. For example, on my system, since my house settled over time, one riser pipe rubs up again the framing structure somewhere inside the wall. When that pipe heats up and expands, it rubs and makes this "tick, tick, tick.." sound.
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 330 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    The clanking sound could be a loose disc on a valve. You could eliminate that by shutting off each valve one at a time. Perhaps it would stop and you have the guilty party.

    Water hammer can also produce that sound, kind of mini hits of steam and water colliding.
  • FredFred Member Posts: 5,712
    We've had other posts where the poster thought there was something rattling/bouncing around in their pipe. I don't think we've actually had that ever pan out though, unless it's a valve disc that may have closed off the pipe completely, near the radiator. The few ounces of pressure in traveling steam just isn't enough to pick an object up and bounce it around inside a pipe, unless the pressure/velocity is way out of wack. Even if it were, I would think the object would find its way to the nearest elbow and stop clanging. From what I've seen it's almost always a noise radiating from another location, maybe a bad disc in a valve on a radiator in a nearby room or on the same riser, above or below where you think it is.
  • Actually, I had this happen to me, and I did find something. The riser up to the 2nd floor radiator rattled like something was in it. When we closed the radiator valve the rattling stopped. So of course we thought a bad valve/lose disc. So we replaced the valve with new. Same thing! Same rattling with valve open, quiet with it closed. So I opened up the 90 in the basement and sure enough there was something in there. I forgot now what it was, a screw or a piece from the valve or something...
    Serving Rhode Island & Eastern Massachusetts
    Old Houses & Steam Heat Our Specialty
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,059
    In most cases it's plain old-fashioned water hammer -- which often makes a very definite metallic clang.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    I wouldn't worry about that little noise until you got the major one figured out. You have bigger fish to fry right now.

    Just for a possibility though, I did open a 2 1/2 drip/dirt leg (probably for the first time) on a one pipe return pipe in the basement of a 3 story 1919 school building. There were 2 valve discs/washers and probably the screws from perhaps a century of use.
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