Please review this tankless install

adambnyc

Hi everyone! Happy Thanksgiving!
My brother is about to buy a house. It has a single tankless unit for both hot water and the raidient heating system. I don't know much about these two in one systems and the guy that put it together isn't a pro afaik. Would greatly appreciate the review. I'm going to walk to property with the inspector this week.

KC_Jones

If they are mixing DHW with the radiant water as an open system, I'd walk away or make sure the offer accounts for a system re-pipe.

That's just my opinion. I view this as a legionella factory.

Paul Pollets

These combined systems are problem-laden and dangerous to health. Many simply cannot keep up with DHW production when it gets colder.

adambnyc

From the pictures, I was kinda scratching my head also. I've seen tankless systems with separate loops for hot water and home heating, but I don't see that here. Looks like the same ports being used for both.

adambnyc

I'm also concerned about the Pex that was used. I'm not sure if oxygen barrier pex was used. If it wasn't then the pumps are wrong as they will rust and if it's true that HW and Heating flow thru the same in/out in the tankless then this is a recipe for disaster.

Is this even allowed by code?

adambnyc

Checking with the current HO. I see the concerns here. It would make more sense that this was for heating only and not a combo system. Maybe we have a misunderstanding.

DZoro

Very minimum is a re-pipe. No primary secondary, p tank, bfp, pressure reducer, hope it is not using potable water in the radiant side, but it's looking like it does, galvanized gas train, lots of wrongs..........

kcopp

Circulator pumps look like the are stainless.
Pex is standard non barrier tubing.
It may "work"... may not. What's the gas bill like?
He needs this addressed before passing papers.
You/he really needs to bring in a heating contractor who knows radiant.

adambnyc

No idea if the setup works. Also it's a propane system. I'm kinda worried about how quickly we will burn thru the tank. Not sure the sizes of the tanks either.

I also noticed the use of galvanized for the gas pipe. Is that allowed? I read a lot of mixed reviews on the topic.

adambnyc

After more research, I believe this is called an open loop system?

adambnyc

Anyone have experience with this company?

Frank & Lindy Service Co.

They are listed on the heatinghelp contractors list, but I don't think I've had the pleasure of meeting Bill before. Would really like to have someone come and take a look. House is in ulster county in NY.

Paul Pollets

Try John Abularragh of Advanced Radiant Design. He's the best in Ulster county, and probably the entire Hudson Valley. His number is 845-687-0044. Expect to pay for a consult.

Rich_49

I second Paul's recommendation to contact John A .

As far as the open loop system is concerned it has always been and remains a bad design . On the company website who made this an internet hit they even state that most will be against it's installation . It is , as others state laden with issues . I , for one would not install this system in anyone's home or building if in fact it is open loop .

adambnyc

Some more info, this is the EXACT system. Current owner bought the kit

http://www.radiantec.com/about-radiant-heating/open-direct-system/

KC_Jones

That basically validates all the comments. Walk away or factor a re-pipe into the offer.

adambnyc

Thanks for all the input. I'm thinking that it should be replaced with an actual combi boiler with separation of heating and HW

Ironman

Radiantwreck strikes again!

What a pack of lies. What they're accusing "boiler people" of is the very thing they are guilty of: namely, turning a quick buck at the customer's expense in the long run.

I just looked at new construction job where they sold the customer 5/8" tubing and 12" long beer can plates. His contractor had done about 1/2 the work but refused to do any more because of the poor quality of materials and the enormous amount of time wasted in stapling up the cheap plates. The customer told me to give him a price on doing it right. He had learned the hard way that cheap up front cost was already more expensive than doing it right.

If a water heater could replace a boiler, there would be no need to make boilers.

JohnNY

I just read through the information on the linked page. Why on earth is it ok to sell this system to people?
And the ONLY caution on the whole page is the one telling DIYers to ignore all the warnings from licensed professional installers and wholesalers:

adambnyc

My brother and I found that same verbiage and had a laugh about it. They seem very defensive as I'm sure many pros have ripped them to shreds. We agree that they system is concerning. Don't like the idea of potable water from the heating system coming from the taps.

Also, I noticed that there is no town inspection sticker. I don't think this passed. I'm kinda hoping that it would not pass town inspection. My brother and I think that it would make a lot more sense to remove the water heater and replace it with a navient. That would give us a closed loop system for heat and a totally separate path via internal heat exchanger for HW.

I do have another concern that I could use the feedback on. The pex might not be oxygen barrier. The current tankless has a copper heat exchanger. My research is telling me that you should use OB Pex if you are using a cast iron boiler or a stainless steel heat heat exchanger. The combi boilers seem to all have stainless steel exchangers.

How bad would it be to use standard Pex with stainless steel exchanger? Are we looking at a much higher rate of failure or something that could be handled with more regular maintenance? Ripping out the Pex in the slab is not an option.

Ironman

You could put a heat exchanger between the new boiler and the floor. You'd also need another pump, expansion tank, relief valve, etc.

Triangle Tube used to allow direct connection of non barrier pex to some of their models. You could check with them, although I still don't care for an open loop: there's too many associated problems.

Somewhere, a few years back someone posted pics of an open system that had been cut open. It was quite a mess inside.

Ironman

JohnNY said:

I just read through the information on the linked page. Why on earth is it ok to sell this system to people?
And the ONLY caution on the whole page is the one telling DIYers to ignore all the warnings from licensed professional installers and wholesalers:

That's it. Accusing us of being against open systems for the sake of profit. And what is their motive for promoting them?

"The use of water heaters in radiant heating applications is accepted by all major codes."
That's a blatant lie! It's outlawed in Europe, Canada and parts of the U.S.

"There has never been even a single case of Legionaires disease attributed to an open direct system."
Another lie! The original outbreak at the Legionaires convention was from an open recirc line in the DHW system at the hotel.

Ask @Mark Eatherton about his first hand experience with Legionella from an open system.

Ironman

Here's an article by Dave Yates that's wheel worth reading on this subject:

http://www.pexheat.com/site/download/ph_Dave_Yates_H20_vs_Boiler.pdf

JohnNY

It's illegal in all 5 boroughs of New York City. I consider that a major market. And, yes, you're right. They list this as their "preferred method". Why is that other than it's the cheapest and most likely to sell?

kcopp

IBC & Triangle tube have a boiler that has all copper water ways. I have used them in systems that are non barrier. Specifically Poly Butylene. I still treat the systems w Fernox. No issues to date. They are also available in combi boilers.

Paul Pollets

Are the internal pumps stainless?

kcopp

No internal pump on the TT Challenger.
The IBC circulator is internal and is coated w/ a glass like substance to make it more robust.

adambnyc

I saw the system today. OB PEX was used. pumps are potable water rated and stainless.

Ironman

adambnyc said:

I saw the system today. OB PEX was used. pumps are potable water rated and stainless.

Then you could use any mod/con boiler.