Boiler pressure issue

kevinjames79

Hello all

Set pressure is between 1 and 0.5 but the pressure guage shows anywhere between 5 psi to 9 psi.

Why is that?

The two main venys were recently changed to gorton #2.

BobC

What does that gauge read when the boiler has been off for a half hour or so? If it reads other than zero you probably need a new gauge.

Alo when is the last time the pigtail under the pressyretrol was taken apart and cleaned?

Bob

kevinjames79

When the boiler is off for a long time... Guage reads 0. But it goes to minimum of 5 psi upto 9 psi when boiler is running or just turned off.

I dont think pigtail has ever been cleaned.

BobC

If it's reading zero when the boiler has been off for a while i would remove that pigtail and clean it. Also make sure the small hole at the base of the pressuretrol is clean and check the port into the boiler to be sure there isn't a glob of crud there.

There is a chance the pressuretrol has gone bad but I would do all the above before condemning it.

Bob

J Heritage

Check the differential inside the pressure control. Assuming it is the gray Honeywell P404. It should be at 1

Fred

Also, when you have the cover off of the Pressuretrol to check the position of the white wheel, check the linkage behind the front scale and make sure that you didn't turn the scale down so much that the linkage dropped off. If you did, reattach that link to the screw.

helpineed

Take it from me, I had the same problem with my gauge about a week ago. My gauge was only reading 7psi even with the heat off for more than 6 hours.
It was the pigtail. That son of a gun was clogged up with gunk. Check out yours.

kevinjames79

To remove pigtail... Pressuretroll will have to be removed too... Right?

kevinjames79

Removed pigtail. It was not clogged but it was dirty.. i just washed it and put it back. Will let you know shortly how it goes. Aim is to bring the pressure down. I also skimmed the boiler. emptied it atleast 4 times.

Canucker

You skimmed it or emptied it? They aren't the same. Proper skimming will remove oils and draining gets rid of the crud that sinks to the bottom

kevinjames79

Sorry... i emptied it 4-5 times... Not Skimmed. Sorry for the confusion.

kevinjames79

Hello all.

So i emptied the boiler multiple times to clean water.

Cleaned the pigtail.

But the pressure still goes very high. Just now it went to 9 and one of my air vent started hissing badly.

I do not think guage is bad. This much hissing should be the result of high pressure.

Plz help guys. What should be my next step.

neilc

a picture of your pressuretrol,
cover on, and cover off,
when you cleaned the pigtail,
did you check into the boiler was open and clear?
bottom of P trol clean and small hole clean also ?
what is the inside wheel set to?
is that linkage attached ?

or it's time for a new one

Paul48

To the best of your knowledge.......has this system worked correctly, before? How big is the boiler, compared to the connected load?

kevinjames79

> @neilc said:
> a picture of your pressuretrol,
> cover on, and cover off,
> when you cleaned the pigtail,
> did you check into the boiler was open and clear?
> bottom of P trol clean and small hole clean also ?
> what is the inside wheel set to?
> is that linkage attached ?
>
> or it's time for a new one

I will check all these things.

But worst case scenario.... Changing the pressuretroll will fix the issue for sure?

kevinjames79

Here are the pictures.

neilc

if you (safely) take one of the wires off the P trol and set the Thermostat up,
will the boiler fire?

acwagner

When you emptied the boiler of all the water, what did the pressure gauge read? It should be zero. If it doesn't read zero, it's probably bad or dirty.

On my system, my vents start hissing at like 3 ounces per square inch, which is around 0.2 psi. I bet the pressuretrol is working. The boiler might not actually be getting up to the pressure level to trigger it, and your gauge is giving a false high reading. Your vents might be prematurely hissing like mine do giving the impression you have high pressure. I wouldn't say you're in the clear just yet, but your pressure gauge readings when the boiler is off sound really suspect.

mikeg2015

Lets take a step back. If the boiler builds that much pressure right away, it's either oversized or your not venting air fast enough... or both. System originally designed for coal, which heating up slowly, need a lot bigger vents than a gas boiler. Gas boiler are notoriously oversized.

A properly sized boiler might take 30-60+ minutes to start building any pressure.

You have a bunch of radiators shut off? ir run outs plugged. Is it 1 pipe or 2 pipe?

kevinjames79

1 pipe system. I have two gorton #2s on my mains. It takes atleast 30 minutes to build that pressure but instead of cutoff at 1-2 it keeps going up until 8-9 psi.

When i emptied the boiler... The pressure guage still read around 5. I thought there still might be steam in there. Is that not the case?

acwagner

It should have read zero. Normally after the boiler shuts off all the steam starts condensing and the pressure drops. Sounds like that gauge is bad. That doesn't mean your pressuretrol is working right, or you don't have other things going on like @mikeg2015 said, but we're zeroing in on this. Maybe one of the Pros can provide a recommendation if that type of gauge that you have can be removed and cleaned or you should just get a new one.

kevinjames79

> @neilc said:
> if you (safely) take one of the wires off the P trol and set the Thermostat up,
> will the boiler fire?

I will check this in the morning. But can i ask what will this tell us? Should the boiler fire or not?

New England SteamWorks

The boiler should not fire. If it fires the pressuretrol is incorrectly wired.

Grallert

Sure sounds like you have a bad gauge. It's internal siphon is blocked up. With the boiler off and drained that gauge should read 0 if working properly. They're cheapo gauges that come with most boilers. Replace that.

neilc

Kevin, you've seen the gage at 0.
can you get a wrench on the back of it, on the flats?
maybe that port is clogged, or the back of the gage needs cleaning also, or replace.
BUT,
something is still letting that pressure build up and that is the job of the pressuretrol to control, (where one might be oversized or under vented), so break that circuit, lift that wire, and be sure the boiler does not fire.
If you get into replacing the gage, or P trol,
consider a tee on the Pigtail, then the gage and P trol on the tee for a little more protection, and the gage can tell you what the P trol is seeing. you could even leave the old gage where it is and add a lower scale, 0-3, 0-5, at the P trol.

kevinjames79

Hello guys

Today i removed one of the pressuretrol wires and tried to fire the boiler. It did not run. I had to attach the other wire to start it.

KC_Jones

That would be normal. The pressurtrol is break on rise. So when there is no pressure the switch is closed and the wires are connected. When you removed the wire you broke the comnection.

neilc

so as Mike said,
what do you have for main venting ?
and does the boiler match (closely ?, or ballpark) the radiation EDR values ?

back to the P trol,
with it wired back in, and the boiler started,
if you reach in and gently assist the see saw lever up at the top of the pigtail, (don't touch the wires, voltages there ! )
Boiler should shut down.
If boiler does shut down by assist you need to figure there is either blockage from boiler jacket thru Pigtail to P trol diaphram, or the diaphram is shot and P trol needs replacing.

Were you able to check the back of the Gage and it's port?

acwagner

@kevinjames79 , I think someone already asked this but I didn't see a response from you. Is this boiler behavior something new or has it always done this? Did you just buy this place or have you lived with the steam system for a few years?

kevinjames79

> @acwagner said:
> @kevinjames79 , I think someone already asked this but I didn't see a response from you. Is this boiler behavior something new or has it always done this? Did you just buy this place or have you lived with the steam system for a few years?

@acwagner just bought the place and heating system has been horrible. Too many adjustments been made to the system. My main problem currently is 10 psi pressure on guage when pressuretrol is set at 0.5. Pigtail is clean. Boiler has clean water. Main venting has two new gorton #2. Pressuretrol is clean.

Second problem is very cold upstairs. There is about 10 degree difference between upstairs and downstairs. Downstairs has inwall convectors but upstairs has away from the wall convectors and they do not retain heat. Upstairs convectors do get hot but very briefly like for 5 min and then stone cold until the next cycle.

I am just trying to handle one problem at a time.

I think boiler is oversized but not by much. Its a 2000 sqft home with 6 convectors downstairs and 4 upstairs. I have not done calculations though.

I will take off the guage and check and/or replace tomorrow.

You guys have been so awesome in guiding me through this and i am really hopeful that your suggestions will fix the system.

@neilc. I will check the pressure trol by adjusting the level. Do i have to push down or pull up?

acwagner

@kevinjames79 you're in good company. We've all been in your position. It'll get better! Take one problem at a time.

After you put the new gauge on and see what the pressure is doing, can you post some pictures of the boiler from different angles? Be far enough back so the near boiler piping can be seen, and one of the info plate on the boiler that shows the rating. Also some pictures of your radiators, both the problematic ones and the ones that are working fine.

neilc

you're not adjusting anything, only testing,
just ever so gently lift (nudge) that see saw right above the pigtail,
as if boiler pressure were pushing up from the pigtail,
look under there and you'll see a small pin coming up from the diaphram,
you might even hear the micro switch "click"

kevinjames79

@acwagner will send the pictures tomorrow after checking/replacing the guage.

@neilc i will check this in few minutes and will post the results here.

Fred

I think the gauge is bad but I also think the Pressuretrol likely also needs to be recalibrated. You can't do that with a 0-30 PSI gauge. You need to add a 0 -3 PSI gauge to be able to fine tune the Pressuretrol. Here is the gauge most of us use:
https://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi
Once you add that to your pigtail, you can follow these instructions to recalibrate the Pressuretrol. Your seems to have a lot of blue/black gunk on the littler screw that has the hex adjustment in the center of it. Has someone messes with that and added some type of glue? You may have to try and melt that with a soldering iron to be able to adjust the screw.

Calibrating the Pressuretrol:
If you see the pressure on the low pressure gauge go much over 1.5 to 2 lbs follow this procedure to re-calibrate the Pressuretrol:
Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn too much, a tiny fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (maybe 1/32 inch turn to start with) . You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.

kevinjames79

> @kevinjames79 said:
> @acwagner will send the pictures tomorrow after checking/replacing the guage.
>
> @neilc i will check this in few minutes and will post the results here.

@neilc i lift it up a little when boiler was running. I heard a click and boiler stopped.

@Fred i tried to play with that micro screw but it seems stuck. Cannot move it.

ratio

I'd point out that calibrating the Pressuretrol is purely cosmetic. Instead of tweaking the calibration screw, you could just creep the setting itself up or down to match the gauge.

Jamie Hall

ratio said:

I'd point out that calibrating the Pressuretrol is purely cosmetic. Instead of tweaking the calibration screw, you could just creep the setting itself up or down to match the gauge.

Cheers! On the old mercury ones, all you had to do was set it slightly off level and everyone went home happy!

Fred

ratio said:

I'd point out that calibrating the Pressuretrol is purely cosmetic. Instead of tweaking the calibration screw, you could just creep the setting itself up or down to match the gauge.

@ratio there isn't much room to "creep the setting" on a Pressuretrol when cut in is @.5 PSI and drops off the link if you try to go below that and the Cut-out Differential is set at "1" PSI, if the Pressuretrol is off by 2 or 3 pounds or more.
I agree with @Jamie Hall , at one time you could tilt a mercury Pressuretrol to get it where it needs to be. No longer the case.

neilc

so I'm running out of ideas here,
the P trol seems to work electrically,
except for the controlling pressure,

I know you cleaned the Pigtail,
you said it was junky dirty, right?
are you sure it was open back into the boiler shell?

with the boiler off and cooled down enough,
pull the P trol one more time and blow back thru the pigtail into the boiler,
you should blow free,

is the little hole at the bottom of the P trol clear and open?
gently poke with paper clip,
(don't rupture diaphram),

don't forget to refill / prime the Pigtail.

I have to think P trol is ok, diaphram wise, or you would be seeing steam and condensate and or residues in the P trol and base there.
If you watch the boiler while firing,
and the P trol cover off,
you don't see any leakage in there, do you?

I see rusty water stains on P trol wiring, low water cutoff,
where is that from ?

were you able to check the backside of your gage?
and its port back into boiler?

you emptied the boiler 4 times,
the water was that dirty?
gotta wonder where else that gunk got to.
are you sure the new main vents are working ?

acwagner

Put the new pressure gauge on and see what the pressure is actually doing before you start tweeking the P-trol. It's wired correctly and does trigger when you lifted it, so it's really a question of whether it's calibrated or not.

My instinct is still that you're not actually building enough pressure to trigger the P-trol cut-out. Some vents start hissing at lower pressures than others. I bet that your at less than a pound of pressure when the hissing starts.

mikeg2015

As above
1) start with a new pressure gauge. Both the Code required 0-30psi gauge (mine was plugged and read high just like yours).
2) Add a Winters low range gauge, maybe a 0-32" gauge. I added 0-16" gauge because y pressure runs so low.... I then dropped it during installation and it reads 1 oz high...sigh. But you can see how easily things can get off. OR buy both... so you have a back up.
3) Add a Vaporstat, and keep the pressuretrol as the safety limit on the 120V circult, and Vaporstat on the 24V or 120V igniter controls.
4) IN all of this, FOR safety, have you checked the LWCO and autofill (if you have one). Please make sure the ciritcal safety work. If the gauge is gunked up, I bet the LWCO is as well. Mine was. Took 30 minutes to remove disassemble the blow down valve, clean the sidewalls with a long screwdriver, flush with clean water, then reassemble. Should be tested weekly... which also flushes it.


Good luck! I've been in your shoes. I've bought dozens of different vents, added main vents, and I'm about 90% there, but still have work to do. Think I found a leak on a run out just yesterday. But it's work it. The steam heat is a vital part of the character of a old home. Just like it's original windows, woodwork, flooring, etc. 50 years from now, there will be fewer and fewer of these systems and you can smile knowing you saved one. I could have spent just $1000 more an installed gas furnaces when I added central air and abandoned the system and saved a lot of money long term. But it's not about the operating costs, or my budget. I could also drive a 15 year old POS car too. But i don't. I didn't have to but a big old historic home. But I wanted to.

Hang in there!