choosing a boiler and baseboard

dvi2020

Reliability

Can this setup where indirect tank doubles as a buffer tank work with any boiler, as long as the tank has a tank-in-tank design?
Reason I ask:
Others involved in this decision would probably feel safer installing a condensing Cast Iron like the GV90+ (or it's less expensive twin, the Williamson GWA) for it's perceived reliability.

The Challenger Solo boiler is dimensionally tiny, like it's designed for use in apartments. I'm considering it so strongly because the package deal they're offering is affordable and because the schematic in the advertising brochure even shows the indirect being used as a buffer with microzones like mine, like that's it's intended setup.
However, I'd hate to take a chance on this and then if something fails, be told "I told you you shouldn't have gone with one of those small european things..." If on a tight budget, would you guys prefer this setup to cast iron keeping in mind that the house is relatively small and well insulated so likely to have reasonable energy bills either way?

NY_Rob

dvi2020 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Heating edge needs two independent pipe loops run for the zone to acheive these numbers, so double the copper and perhaps double the installation cost, no?

You just need a single supply to and single return from the HE rads, no special or extra piping required.
To get the high output out of the HE2- you split the supply at the input side of the radiator to use both pipes in the radiator, then recombine it at the output side.
I posted some photos of my HE2 install from this summer here which will make it clear:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/162426/heating-edge-2-install-with-photos

Smiths Environmental Products is owned by Emerson Swan who is a major supplier in NY, if you have a supply house near you- they 100% for sure get product from Swan and they can get you the HE2 baseboard.
Blackman is a big supplier on LI and in and around NYC... they get product from Swan too, they had never heard of HE2... but after I told them Smiths is owned by Swan, they were able to special order the HE2 for me without issue.
http://www.emersonswan.com/manufacturers-products/smiths-environmental.html

dvi2020 said:

...The cast iron BB from WM looks very nice, but even if I paid extra for it 1. Could I still install regular fin in the larger zone$$? 2. I guess it doesn't really achieve the objective of lowering the AWT because the output is similar to regular fin, so I'd still need those long length$ of it, no?

The CI BB isn't low temp efficient like the HE2, so you would need long lengths of it for 130-140F AWT, almost the same lengths as std fin-tube.
If you have a zone with it's own t-stat, that's isolated or sealed off (like an apartment in your house) from other zones there's no reason you can't go all CI in that zone if it would be beneficial. If you mix CI and fin-tube in areas that share airflow, you may get one area that heats up faster and cools down faster (the fin-tube area) and another area that takes longer to heat up but stays warm longer (CI BB) area. If that's desirable, you can use the CI BB to your advantage. I have an area in my home where that particular situation has worked out perfectly with a mix of CI BB and fin-tube.

dvi2020

Wow. Nice job on your install. The photos make it very clear. thanks. I guess we could use it for one of the zones first to see how it looks before going with it in the rest of the house.

Are these baseboards any more or less likely to ting and pop the way that regular fin does? That's what got me thinking of CI. Did you have these sounds before, and did they disappear? I don't know if you've had much chance to use your new bb yet.

I don't suppose it's possible to go with a cover that looks different? I like that you mentioned that the cover is all one piece so can be replaced entirely.

regarding mixing CI BB with fin, someone I spoke to, I think a tech at TT said that the boiler's outdoor reset would be set for one type or another so best not to have different types in diferent zones. sounded reasonable to me. is this not necessarily true? I guess if you have one of the fancier mod cons that distributes different water temperatures to different zones with on board zone control, then you could do what you want, but maybe not for the simpler types that I'm looking at, no?

Ironman

I realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for the life of me, I can't see how the old style BB looks better to you than the Heating Edge.

dvi2020

OK. I discussed this with my partner and reviewed your pictures, so Smith's it is!

Now each time I post a question asking some version of "is the Challenger solo (or Navien NHB) a reliable bet given it's affordability?" or "would cast iron with condenser be safer from a reliability standpoint?", I get crickets. Is that because you don't have an opinion, or afraid to stick your necks out and state an opinion or because you believe it's better to move forward technologically and find a way to install a mod con no matter which...?

On this note, do any of you have experience with making warranty claims to Corner Stone, the company that has optional coverage for TT? Are service folks and suppliers satisfied with them? Do they actually pay claims at proper amounts?
Unfortunately, they only cover the boiler itself.

PSE&G offers Worryfree program that can cost as much as $20/month to cover most of the system including tank, but with a lesser-known modcon like the Challenger, will they be sending someone who'll just be scratching their head?

Once these systems are fully in place, do the pumps and circulators, etc tend to be pretty reliable/or inexpensive to replace, or is an extended warranty covering these things highly recommended?

Are there better third party companies you know who offer a good warranty extension that covers the whole system? My plumber is a good guy and very reasonable, but doesn't offer this type of long-term warranty coverage.

Thank you so so much!!

Ironman

I'd look at HTP's UFT080. Fire tube design, 10 to 1 turn down at good price point:

http://www.htproducts.com/UFT-Boiler.html

dvi2020

Thank you. Yeah, I looked into HTP. Unfortunately, when I used their website to search for dealers/servicers near me, the options were very far. the closest ones they recommend are in MA, or near Philly, and when I called MA to ask questions, he couldn't identify someone closer who designs their systems, just one place an hour away that's able to sell them.

clammy

take a look at utica i believe its a ssc mod con fire tube design very low modulation i believe about 7 or 8 mbtu low fire i install one last year and was impressed easy set up no pimary secondary piping required built in pump and by pass piping .I used it on a small 2 zone system w a turbo max 23 indirect i think it was a 50 mbtu worked beautifully .designing your system to operate at the lowest water tempeture on design day will lead to the best performance of which ever mod con you have installed ,shoot for max of 140 at design day usually any lower and it starts to costs $and may not merit the savings . I have a munchkin w panel rads and some radiant 135 max design 10 ost one zone my systems a bit over 10 or 11 years old no issues but installed by the book with a hydro seperator and a home run pap piping but then again this is my house and i do this for a living so it is my little boiler porn .I dont know how much pse &g worryfree will do w a mod con i know u will wait longer for them over the original installer who should service what they install if there the right installer peace and good luck clammy

Brewbeer

I looked at the smith's high output baseboard when I designed and installed a new HWBB system in my house. What I discovered is that the smith's baseboard is more than 2x the cost per foot as some of the higher output baseboards manufactured by Sterling. For my project, it was less costly to use longer runs of Sterling than short runs of smith's. Limited wall space may make that unworkable for your situation. I designed my system using a 130 degree supply water temp. I also looked at the on line slant fin calculator, and it estimated my heatloss at about 2 times what it actually is, so I wouldn't go about designing your system based on the online slant fin product.

Ironman

dvi2020 said:

Thank you. Yeah, I looked into HTP. Unfortunately, when I used their website to search for dealers/servicers near me, the options were very far. the closest ones they recommend are in MA, or near Philly, and when I called MA to ask questions, he couldn't identify someone closer who designs their systems, just one place an hour away that's able to sell them.

Have you tried the on site contractor locator? There are several good men on here that cover most of NJ.

NY_Rob

Unlike the simple CI boilers of the past where you could find aquastats and circulators at Home Depot at 8pm on a Sunday evening, every boiler tech carried an assortment of pilot assemblies on his truck and there were only a handful of gas valves that fit 99% of the boilers... mod-cons are part computer, part high-tech stainless steel boiler. Virtually no parts are standard, universal or shared across brand lines, or even shared within the same brand. No techs carry parts for mod-cons on their trucks, they diagnose the problem and order the parts as needed. Could be overnight if the area distributor (notice I didn't say local supply house) has the part in stock, could be days if it has to come direct from the manufacturer.
First and foremost, it's vital that whomever installs your new boiler also services it, has techs trained on it and has common parts on hand locally. There are great mod-cons available, but if no one local to you services it you're up the creek if you have any problems.

Earlier you seemed sold on the TT brand, they're pretty highly regarded on this board by the pros- why are you second guessing TT now?

NY_Rob

dvi2020 said:

Are these baseboards any more or less likely to ting and pop the way that regular fin does? That's what got me thinking of CI. Did you have these sounds before, and did they disappear? I don't know if you've had much chance to use your new bb yet.

The HE2 is quiet, but I'm sending 120F water in to them not 180F, so that may have something to do with it.

dvi2020 said:

I don't suppose it's possible to go with a cover that looks different?

I haven't seen any other than the stock covers offered.

dvi2020 said:

regarding mixing CI BB with fin, someone I spoke to, I think a tech at TT said that the boiler's outdoor reset would be set for one type or another so best not to have different types in diferent zones. sounded reasonable to me. is this not necessarily true?

Well, yes and no.....

No difference on the ODR curve between std fin-tube and CI BB, but if you go with high efficiency/low-temp baseboard like HE2 you can use a lower SWT ODR curve because you can still shed a lot of BTU's even at low supply temps.

Brewbeer

@NY_Rob is right, the lower the supply water temps mean less emitter noise from thermal movement. My system generally runs in the 100 to 110 range and it is very rare to hear the baseboard click. Running constant circulation (eg, balancing emitter output to match building heatloss) will also keep thermal movement noise to a minimum.

dvi2020

Thank you Clammy for the input. I'll look at the Utica.

Thanks Brewbeer. I'll compare the Sterling.

Ironman, I was under the impression that if I chose someone from the list, they would logically be the ones to install it, whereas I have our plumber. Would these folks design and sell the system, and just offer guidance on installation?

NY_Rob, BB: Thanks for the feedback regarding noise and ODR curve.
I was investigating TT the most because it's the brand where I have a local distributor willing to help as I just described to Ironman and a good price, although I think he's more conservative with calculating heat loss than this group would like, so sizing is still uncertain for the moment. I understood that TT's _own_ Prestige and Smart lines are highly regarded (and pricey), but hadn't heard much about their Comfort tank or suspisciously tiny wall hung Challenger (which is basically rebranded Intergas from Netherlands). I had one person say it's trustworthy but just wanted to put it out there to see if others agree.

Brewbeer

@dvi2020 since your project was similar to mine (new design), consider taking a look at my system design thread linked in my signature.
I want to reiterate a point raised by others: an accurate room by room heat loss calculation is CRITICAL. It's not difficult to do, but it takes time and attention to detail. I did one for my design and put it in a spreadsheet that is attached in the thread. If you are handy with a tape measure and have the time to make and record accurate measurements, I'd be happy to give you the spreadsheet to use in your design.

dvi2020

Brewbeer, I just looked but don't see your signature. i clicked on your profile but didn't see it. i searched for brewbeer system design and lots of stuff came up but don't think it's what you're referring to. I would definitely like to see your spreadsheet. I already have all the room, window, and door dimensions. Thank you!

Leon82

Switch to desktop site

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385

Brewbeer

@dvi2020 here is the thread:
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385

Rich_49

dvi2020 said:

Thank you. Yeah, I looked into HTP. Unfortunately, when I used their website to search for dealers/servicers near me, the options were very far. the closest ones they recommend are in MA, or near Philly, and when I called MA to ask questions, he couldn't identify someone closer who designs their systems, just one place an hour away that's able to sell them.

Contact me .