Circulator Pump leaking

jjustinia11

MilanD said:

It's all in the technique. See how this guy removes the valve and spud on the rad. Granted, it's brass, but same principle will work on CI or to an extent also on malleable fittings, or iron pipes. You may have to split CI fitting with a wedge and another hammer opposite of where you are hitting (thus 2 people needed), or work a little more gingerly on a pipe inside a fitting.

Thank you! Exactly the way he got the threaded bit out of the rad is what I was thinking I would do for the pipe into my elbow. If that dont work, then I was gonna cut the pipe at the elbow and then cut the elbow just like the video guy did on the valve and spin it off. Then $5 bucks for a new elbow and I am i business. H.D. has a decent supply of 1 1/4 nipple plus the ability to do a custom cut. and this is the one in NYC. When I go home to the burbs I hope to have a bigger selection for Saturday needs. I will "hopefully" get the pipe out tonight and see what I am dealing with or capable of.

MilanD

> @jjustinia11 said:
> It's all in the technique. See how this guy removes the valve and spud on the rad. Granted, it's brass, but same principle will work on CI or to an extent also on malleable fittings, or iron pipes. You may have to split CI fitting with a wedge and another hammer opposite of where you are hitting (thus 2 people needed), or work a little more gingerly on a pipe inside a fitting.
>
>
> Thank you! Exactly the way he got the threaded bit out of the rad is what I was thinking I would do for the pipe into my elbow. If that dont work, then I was gonna cut the pipe at the elbow and then cut the elbow just like the video guy did on the valve and spin it off. Then $5 bucks for a new elbow and I am i business. H.D. has a decent supply of 1 1/4 nipple plus the ability to do a custom cut. and this is the one in NYC. When I go home to the burbs I hope to have a bigger selection for Saturday needs. I will "hopefully" get the pipe out tonight and see what I am dealing with or capable of.

Looks like you got it!

Ironman

This is how you break a fitting that won't come loose:

https://youtu.be/He9ELT2_CeQ

Ironman

Please post a pic of the Tees on the main that go to your radiators.

HVACNUT

> @jjustinia11 said:
> What is the extra person for. I got my wife.

You just made my day. That, and the + lead broke off the circuit board for my manometer. First time using a soldering gun and it works again! She must be a good woman.

Can you sweat pipe? Why not come down in copper? You can even cut in a purge valve.

jjustinia11

So the pump could not have come out easier. It was almost like the bolts were finger tight. but I cannot budge the pipe to spin. I have put all my force into it and nothing. Its too late to get into the recip saw-but ever that seems like the pipe is solid and will require alot!

Should I be worried leaving the pipes like this for a couple days? I feel like there is a still a drip of water worried that over the day it may make a mess if it fills the bottom of the boiler.

jjustinia11

HVACNUT said:

> @jjustinia11 said:

> What is the extra person for. I got my wife.



You just made my day. That, and the + lead broke off the circuit board for my manometer. First time using a soldering gun and it works again! She must be a good woman.



Can you sweat pipe? Why not come down in copper? You can even cut in a purge valve.

Yes-I can sweat pipe. But I think once I get to a point that I get the old pipe out everything will be a lot easier. Its just getting that pipe out.

jjustinia11

Ironman said:

This is how you break a fitting that won't come loose:

https://youtu.be/He9ELT2_CeQ

Yup. I think that is what I will need to do. Got a friend coming over tomorrow with his mini sledge. Are the elbows cast iron? If so I have cracked that before.

jjustinia11

Ironman said:

Please post a pic of the Tees on the main that go to your radiators.

I cant see them the pipe goes into the ceiling and then out of view. it returns with soft small copper pipe. what are you trying to ascertain?

j a_2

Wow you got lots of great information here, so please let us know via pictures how it came out...

jjustinia11

Yes! everyone has been extremely helpful. I will post pics as I progress. Tomorrow will be the moment of truth. If I can get the elbow off clean putting it back together will be much easier I think.

Thanks all!

jjustinia11

Just ran into a problem. The bottom flange is also frozen. Being that is located right at the T next to the boiler it is very risky. Could I just get another flange and attach it and then having a run a pipe come out of it, in a way creating a union or a coupler?????

Also what about liquid wrench. Can that loosen things up?

Larry Weingarten

Hello, For that lower flange and possibly elsewhere, get out a torch and heat up the flange or female part of the joint. Get it pretty hot. Then use two wrenches to see if you can get things loosened up. Avoid burned fingers! A penetrant called Kroil is good, but sorta hard to find. Heat has worked well for me, for years.

Yours, Larry

HVACNUT

What are you doing for hot water now?

jjustinia11

HVACNUT said:

What are you doing for hot water now?

We have a separate hot water tank right behind the boiler. While the is a hot water coil in the boiler the hot water tank still has its own supply. You can probably see in one of my prior pics the water has a mixing area after the boiler shut off before the pressure reducing valve. I think it may still flow through the top of the boiler. Took showers this morning and all was fine.

Ironman

Put the flange bolts and nuts back on the flange with them protruding upward and use the handle of a large pipe wrench between them to loosen the flange. As Larry said, use a lot of heat if needed.

jjustinia11

Would a MAP torch work well?

Larry Weingarten

Hello and yes. Dy try to heat only the flange, rather than the pipe. Thermal expansion can be your friend!
Yours, Larry

jjustinia11

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello and yes. Dy try to heat only the flange, rather than the pipe. Thermal expansion can be your friend!
Yours, Larry

I'm hoping. I tried on the flange last night and it was not doing anything. tonight will be all about breaking free the flange and upper pipe.

MilanD

jjustinia11 said:

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello and yes. Dy try to heat only the flange, rather than the pipe. Thermal expansion can be your friend!
Yours, Larry

I'm hoping. I tried on the flange last night and it was not doing anything. tonight will be all about breaking free the flange and upper pipe.

You need more heat and a bigger wrench (lever)...

Alan Welch

Hope you remembered to shut the burner/controls off.------ That long pipe coming down from the ceiling is in effect a long pipe wrench , hold the 2nd elbow(on the horizontal piping) with a large wrench and use the pipe to break loose the fitting, then cut out and spin off. Down the bottom, you could spin off the tee and replace with another elbow since you said the other circulator is not piped to anything. Do you have two zones/thermostats? I see another circulator to the right of the boiler that is older than the one you are replacing. I personally think your putting a lot of time,effort and money into a heating system past its prime.

jjustinia11

Alan Welch said:

Hope you remembered to shut the burner/controls off.------ That long pipe coming down from the ceiling is in effect a long pipe wrench , hold the 2nd elbow(on the horizontal piping) with a large wrench and use the pipe to break loose the fitting, then cut out and spin off. Down the bottom, you could spin off the tee and replace with another elbow since you said the other circulator is not piped to anything. Do you have two zones/thermostats? I see another circulator to the right of the boiler that is older than the one you are replacing. I personally think your putting a lot of time,effort and money into a heating system past its prime.

I did turn off the boiler and cut power to it.g

Good idea about the lever. I have two thermostats. The circulator on th right you see goes to the basement baseboards. It works fine for now.

With respect to effort and money not sure I am clear. Me doing this myself is to save money by putting in some effort. The more expensive option would be to hire. Plumber to do this which I would guess would cost a lot more. My circulator is bad, I need to fix it before it gets cold. What do you suggest I should be doing differently, beside not adding the iso valves, which everyone suggested I do. I am concerned that this pump might be undersized so having the iso valves helps if i need to switch. It’s adding a little under 100 to the cost.

Let me know what you are thinking is a better course given this out of date boiler. Replacing it is into the many thousands.

jjustinia11

So Amazing, they both came off easily with your advice. I used MAP to heat the flange and the fitting red hot. The flange came off like butter. Did what Ironman suggested, put the bolt back in and used a 4-foot pipe and it spun off with almost no force. The use the leverage of the upper pipe to just spin off the elbow. 15 minutes and hardly any force. Ace hardware will cut me a length to size for $20. I will put this back together on Saturday. I will post pics.

Thank you! appreciate the good advice. Hopefully, I don't run into any more problems.

When I connect the new pipes confirming that I should use pipe dope???

Ironman

Use Teflon tape AND Teflon dope. Most of us prefer Blue Monster, but any good brand will do.

Wrap the tape clockwise around the pipes at least 4 turns, then dope.

Use a wire wheel on a drill to clean out the threads inside the old fitting and the outside of the old nipple.

jjustinia11

Ironman said:

Use Teflon tape AND Teflon dope. Most of us prefer Blue Monster, but any good brand will do.

Wrap the tape clockwise around the pipes at least 4 turns, then dope.

Use a wire wheel on a drill to clean out the threads inside the old fitting and the outside of the old nipple.

Thank you! I will finish on Saturday. I appreciate your excellent advice.

JUGHNE

Do you have 2 pumps for 2 zones controlled by 2 tstats?

Also how many taps are used in the bottom of the air compression tank that is hanging at the ceiling? More pictures of those connections and where the pipe go to would be interesting.

And one pipe connects to what appears to be an air separator at the top of the supply pipe coming out of the top of the boiler....and any numbers on that device.
It looks like there are 2 flow/check valves next to this.

HVACNUT

Is it a monoflo loop?
If so, how are the bleeders on the rads?
Time to check/replace while the system is drained.

jjustinia11

HVACNUT said:

Is it a monoflo loop?

If so, how are the bleeders on the rads?

Time to check/replace while the system is drained.

Bleeder on all rads are new. I went around and replaced when I drained the system couple years ago. I had to take out the rad in the bathroom when I remodeled and retiled. I went and replaced all the bleeders. Shiny new and in good condition. What is a monoflo loop?

Alan Welch

When you get it together don't power circulator until you bleed air from system, and to answer earlier question keep pressure below 30 . At 30 the relief valve should open and blast water all over the floor. ----I understand it's expensive to replace the system, but would guess the boiler is over 30 years old, past it's life expectancy, I see several corroded valves,not sure what it costs you to heat house and hot water, but a boiler with a coil maintaining temp is a big waste of energy. A new system might pay for itself in a few years, maybe rebates and incentives available, take up less space, keep basement cooler in summer, lower electrical cost, less time spent fixing etc.

JUGHNE

True, it may be time for an upgrade.

jjustina, you should get some of Dan's books for hot water heating systems.

But, I admire a homeowner willing to learn and fix his own stuff.
When the time comes for a replacement he will be an educated homeowner, realizing the pitfalls of working with old piping etc.
Our trades do not have to worry about all homeowners suddenly DIY everything.

As a matter of fact an article in the WSJ discussed new retail customers needing tutorials on the most basic functions of owning their own houses. One of Home Depots most used tutorials is on how to read a tape measure. Those troublesome fractions are not taught in school much at all. Lawnmower operation, hanging pictures etc. The article discussed that many youth had no time to learn these functions because of the many activities their parents had them involved in.

He has a separate water heater and should not be firing the boiler in the summer.

jjustinia11

I don't have the money for an upgrade now. Tough times. I would love to but can't. The water is separate and bypass the boiler coil when it is off and I do not run the boiler in the summer. It actually increases efficiency in the winter as the water is preheated going into the heater, which is new-ish. I added the expansion pump and pressure gauge myself as well as replacing the house pressure regulator. This way I can always see the house pressure. I keep it at 60 PSI, a little high I know. I actually think I got help from Ironman and HVACnut on another forum a long time ago when I did those projects. the name sound familiar.

It is actually not that expensive to run and we are nice and toasty. I don't know if that will change with this smaller pump. I never use the basement heat. That is actually a future concern as the pipes are buried under the foundation in the concrete. I am sure they will erode soon.

MilanD

As a hands on home owner, if servicing of current equipment will give it more use and extend its life, keep maintaining. Labor is yours, supplies are a fraction of a fraction of a cost of a new installation. From reading here on the board, Cast Iron boiler takes so much less babying than modern high efficiency mod con boilers, that unless it's a new install with pexalpex lines, installing new mod con on an old systems can turn into a pain in the neck, esp. if there is a lack of good techs in your neck of the woods. There is also much more need for a pro servicing it yearly and need for quality water, that savings in fuel may be offset by paying for annual and other servicing. There are pros here, I'll let them talk about technical aspects of a modern mod con install on an old system and what it entails from the maintenance side and op costs outside fuel.

Unless the actual boiler is corroded and leaking, and is not guzzling fuel, keep it. You can start pricing replacement now and see what the fuel savings would be and see what your payback time will be. If it were me, I'd never consider a mod con on an old system. I do have one newer Smith ci in one of my rentals with an outdoor reset (Johnson Controls A350R). Does a fine job keeping my tenants warmer than what I keep my own house. Compared to my supposed hi eff forced air at home, per sq ft heated, costs about the same with that ci boiler vs my forced air, on the exact same kind of a brick building without insulation. That's why I now want to install steam from scratch in my own house (I have steam at work and love the heat off 212*f radiator). Matter of fact, I already have all the rads and the boiler in my storage - it's amazing what people will give you for free if you want to take it away.

So don't feel bad about having to do with what you have. The most efficient system is the one that costs you the least to operate in the long run, and being able to maintain it yourself is a big plus.

Cheers! Glad to see all the fittings are off.

jjustinia11

So I got a little carried away and not only put in the pump, I repiped the boiler and put in ball valves and the ability to isolate the entire boiler from the house so you can work on it and still have full hot and cold water to the house. Ace hard ware cut me the black pipe, cost me $11 dollars.

I still have one more shut off to switch and power to the circ pump. I know the soldering is messy but all is watertight.

HVACNUT

Gla it worked out for you.
Don't let @GW see all that solder snot.

GW

ha! It's all good, i'm sire this gentleman exceeds my abilities in lots of areas of life

Ironman

Good job!

Begin with the circulator set to medium speed and see how it works. Your looking for a 20* delta T (difference) between the supply and return on a very cold day and the boiler up to temp.

Make sure you have the check valve in the pump.

jjustinia11

Ironman said:

Good job!

Begin with the circulator set to medium speed and see how it works. Your looking for a 20* delta T (difference) between the supply and return on a very cold day and the boiler up to temp.

Make sure you have the check valve in the pump.

I have one final question of curiosity. Look at the 2 vertical copper lines leaving the boiler and going up. See the right in the middle their is a horizontal bridge going between them. This confused me. Because of its position it seem useless and was originally in the open position. Meaning it was mixing fresh water and water leaving the boilers heating coil on its way to my water heater. Does any know a reason this would be here and why it was open???

I actually did the same thing above so I could isolate the boiler and keep water. This one does not do anything except mix water. I put it in to match what was there, did not want to leave it out and find out it was important (I could not wait to ask before I did-got excited). Any way, it makes sense to me the mixing of the freshwater and water leaving the boiler should not mix and I would think I should keep this valve closed as well as the horizontal one I put above it (Unless I am by passing the boiler I would close the two vertical ones and open the horizontal one on the top one). But one seems to have no use and seem to be a potential contaminate to the fresh water supply. Please confirm...

Should I make a new conversation for this?

Thanks for your help could not have done this with out the advice so I knew I was making the correct choices.

Ironman

It may have been there to temper cold with the hot to prevent scalding.

BEWARE: You MUST leave the cold side valve or the drain valve open on the tankless coil or else it will rupture (maybe explode) because the water in it will have no way to expand when heated.

jjustinia11

Ironman said:

It may have been there to temper cold with the hot to prevent scalding.

BEWARE: You MUST leave the cold side valve or the drain valve open on the tankless coil or else it will rupture (maybe explode) because the water in it will have no way to expand when heated.

Got it. Right now there is no water or power to the boiler, it is completely off and the boiler drains are in the open position to drain and release pressure.

For that mixing valve should I just keep it closed when I start things back up? Obviously opening up the flow out of the coil when I do.

HVACNUT

I believe you said your not even using the coil. You have a seperate water heater. So yeah, close the ball valves and leave the coil drain open.