Piecemeal replacement of Kitec?

shanedn

We purchased a home a couple of months ago, and our inspector (frustratingly) missed the Kitec PEX used for the boiler/radiator system. The 3/8" lines are starting to blister and leak at the manifold valves. There are 1/2" lines that are mixed in with maybe 4-5 radiators served by 3/8" and another 7-8 radiators served with 1/2". The 1/2" currently looks like it is brand new, with no white residue at the fittings, blistering, or brown spots.

I reached out to a recommended contractor to do the repipe, and with an estimate of (edit: removed pricing. sorry I didn't notice that message!) a number much higher than I expected for the main level (9 radiators) that has mostly really clean access from the basement, I've considered doing it myself. The only way I can pull that off is if I can piecemeal it as I just don't have enough time to repipe the entire house in a short period where I would be okay without heat. I'm not going to second-guess the contractor's price, as it may be completely fair. I just know that it is more than I want to swallow after just buying the house if I can avoid it.

Are there any major concerns with repiping one radiator at a time (starting with those 3/8" lines that have visible issues)? Normally DIY projects don't give me pause, but I want to make sure this is done the right way without causing more problems down the road. From what I understand, part of the issue with Kitec is the zinc in the fittings reacted with the PEX-AL-PEX, causing early deterioration. With that in mind, is that only a Kitec fitting + Kitec PEX issue, or would new piping (thinking Viega Fostapex) be affected by other Kitec fittings still in the system?

I'm still neck deep in researching, and I was hoping the pros here could help me navigate this part as searching hasn't yielded me much.

Thanks!

kcopp

You could just replace the bad fittings at the manifold and watch the rest of the system.
Depending on how the manifold was piped you may be able to cut and redo the connection.
Don't Panic.
Check your water quality.
Cleaning the system w/ a good cleaner and then using an inhibitor will slow the issues.
Got any pix?

hot_rod

I'd start replacing all of it, even if you have to do it radiator by radiator. There were a few different issues with the tube, not all visible.

shanedn

Thanks for the suggestions kcopp and hot rod. Here is a pic of the manifold present:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/axoHwo5BhpQtCs2f1

The left side is supply, right side is return. If you look closely, the bottom left 3 supply lines have white residue out of the fittings.

Here are a couple pictures of the blistering I'm seeing, as well a picture of the PEX lines going into the upstairs manifold that is all 1/2". The upstairs is all 1/2", and everything looks good so far (emphasis on so far!).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/As94ILoMFzPefoB53

Thanks for the suggestion to not panic kcopp because that's exactly where I've been for the last 48hr

hot_rod

Those copper manifolds could be reused by adding new valves and adapters to pex.
Those are Dahl mini ball valves, I've never seen a problem with dezincification with the valve, they are machined from a top grade bar stock, not forged like most valve bodies. But the Kitec adapter added may be what is causing the corrosion.

The 3 concerns with that tube are the fitting dezinicifaction, delamination, and the bubbles the appear inside or outside the tube.

The dezincing was more common on plumbing systems and was actually caused by low ph or aggressive water reacting with that particular grade of brass, it was not a problem in all installation.

I suspect the aluminum layer in the tube reacted with the brass causing the aluminum layer to breakdown the the tube would get fluid between the layers and corrode. There should be an isolation washer between the end of the tube and the fitting, a dielectric break.

But it's all water under the bridge at this point

Cut off the old valves, solder on new ones and replace the pex.

Or buy new manifolds, mount them nearby and start switching over as you have time.

These Sioux Chief manifolds are a nice, fairly inexpensive way to go.

http://www.siouxchief.com/docs/default-source/print/print-brochures/supply/branchmaster---manifolds---brochure.pdf?sfvrsn=6

EBEBRATT-Ed

Not supposed to talk pricing but if your handy I wouldn't fear doing this yourself at all. Sounds like @Hotrod has good advise on this

hot_rod

And if you want to go full DIY homeowner, you can buy 1/2" Sharkbite valves to replace all the manifold valves. I/2" pex and 1/2" copper are the same OD so just slip everything together, no soldering or crimping. At least at the manifold. All sorts of Sharkbite adapters for the radiator connections also.

Get the version with the side port and you would have a purge point for every loop.

shanedn

Thanks for the loads of info hot rod!

All said and done, I'd like to redo this in a way that wouldn't make a professional plumber think it was a DIY job . So I'll probably try to avoid the Sharkbite parts and spend some time in the garage perfecting sweating copper. I'm hoping to end up with a very clean install with quality joints.

In regards to PEX choices, if it is allowed here, are there any recommended brands of PEX-AL-PEX that have been proven longterm and don't require $1k of specialized tooling to use? As I mentioned earlier, I think I've seen the Viega Fostapex thrown around here a bit while I was researching, so I was heading in that direction. If that is a quality choice, what are the tools needed? A crimper, cutter, and am I seeing it correctly that there is a tool to trim back the outer layer of PEX to expose the aluminum for joints?

Next question. The installers who put in the radiators ran copper from the radiator down below the floor. On roughly half of them, there isn't enough copper below the floor to allow me to remove the existing fitting to replace it, so I'll have to pull out that copper and extend it a bit further. As I haven't done much copper work before (other than a few sharkbites), I'm unfamiliar with this joint:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sbqOCTITb0Bzwfij1

I'm not seeing a solder bead. Is that a compression fitting, or is it somehow soldered from the other end if that makes sense?

Lastly (for now!), if I end up doing this a radiator or two at a time, I'll obviously need to drain and refill the system each time. Can I turn off all of the unaffected valves on the manifold when draining to only drain the radiators in question? Then, when refilling, what is the proper way to do that that results in the air being purged from the system?

Thanks for all of the help so far. You might regret telling me that it is a doable project as I'm already throwing way too many questions your way

hot_rod

Lucky you, that is a compression fitting on the radiator angle valve. It should come apart and be reusable. Worse case a new ferrule.

You can order those copper manifolds with the valve installed and the pex connection also ready to go.

Fosta Pex is my favorite, you would need a stripper tool, ideally use the Viega fitting, although any pex barb adapter in the valve will work.

So either have Sioux Chief or Alberta T-Drill build a manifold with valves and adapters to your liking.

http://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/specialty-manifold-valve.php


Of buy a copper manifold with 1/2 copper tube and sweat on the Dahl/Viega valves.

shanedn

That is really relieving that those are just compression fittings.

In light of everything I've learned so far, would this be an acceptable solution?

• Use existing manifold
• Replace one or more radiator loops at a time
• Replace existing valves from manifold when replacing lines with something like this: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Dahl-521-13-PX3-1-2-Female-Solder-x-1-2-Pex-Crimp-Straight-Stop-Valve-Lead-Free-Brass
• Use Viega Prep Tool to remove outer pex & aluminum from pex on both ends
• On manifold side, crimp onto valve using crimp rings like this:
  http://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-PXCR050-1-2-PEX-Crimp-Ring
• Use crimping tool: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Viega-41723-1-2-PEX-Full-Circle-Crimp-Tool-In-Yellow-12435000-p
• Replace copper from radiator down below floor level to a point where I can access the fitting. Install copper->PEX fitting before reattaching copper to radiator: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-PXCA050-1-2-PEX-x-1-2-Copper-Pipe-Brass-Adapter-Lead-Free
• Replace compression sleeves when installing copper to radiator (since they are cheap)
• Crimp PEX to fitting at base of copper
• Support PEX below joists (they almost all run perpendicular to joists) with: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Wirsbo-Uponor-A7350500-1-2-PEX-Standard-Tube-Clamp-Bag-of-100 or possibly suspended/mickey type

I still have to do some research on the actual proper method to drain, refill and add inhibitor. I just want to make sure that the above solution wouldn't be frowned upon by a professional.

Thanks again!

hot_rod

Actually I think Viega prefers that you use their fitting with the stainless collar. This assure warranty should a problem (like Kitec) arise

It also requires their crimp tool.

If you do radiator by radiator you will be draining down the entire system each time to add the new valve, that is why it might be less hassle to install new manifolds with valves near the existing one, tie it into the system, and switch over as you repipe.

I'd also confirm that the radiator compression fitting is reusable. Sometimes the ferrules compress into the copper tube and are not easily removed. If not, remove the tube that is on the valves, and couple on a short piece of copper to extend to the length you need.

shanedn

I'm struggling with the idea of a second manifold due to space constraints, and also me feeling a bit uncomfortable hacking into the parts of the system that look much more complicated . Here is a better picture of the current setup. I can't think of a good spot to do a second manifold.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dpf9MvzS6XOyLSz32

However, in light of everything we've discussed, what I am considering doing is trying to knock out the 3-4 loops that are showing signs of pending failure in one pass as soon as possible. Then I'll cross my fingers for no problems on the other loops over winter. Once the system is shut down in the summer, I can then work on tackling the rest of the main floor in a second pass. That would mean only draining and filling twice.

As far as using Viega only fittings, would that result in doing this then?

• Replace existing manifold valve with copper->Viega press connector->Viega stop valve->Fostapex PEX line
• On the radiator side, going from copper->Viega press connector->Fostapex PEX line
• Don't buy any crimp rings
• Use this tool instead of the crimp ring tool: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Viega-50020-PEX-Press-Tool-1-2-yellow-5355000-p

hot_rod

Close, you want sweat style valves and adapters for the radiators. So sweat (solder) X FostaPex crimp.
If you buy press adapters then you need to buy or rent a press tool every time you work on it.

Another option is for you to string all the new FostaPex, label it and have a pro come over and make all the connections at once.

Mark Eatherton

FYI, the claims date for the class action lawsuit against the manufacturer has been extended to 2020.

http://www.kitecsettlement.com/casestatus.cfm

If you know someone who may have missed the first cut off date, spread the word. There is a HUGE pot of money sitting there, waiting for people to take action. If action isn't taken, the manufacturer gets the pot of money back. SPREAD THE WORD please...

ME

JUGHNE

The inspector didn't notice the blistering and leaking? 2-3 months ago.
I could well imagine he wasn't aware of the recall, but the defects should have prompted him to investigate the Kitec brand.

But he is probably off the hook with some small print in his contract?

Mark Eatherton

JUGHNE said:

The inspector didn't notice the blistering and leaking? 2-3 months ago.
I could well imagine he wasn't aware of the recall, but the defects should have prompted him to investigate the Kitec brand.

But he is probably off the hook with some small print in his contract?

It's not even small print. They exclude themselves from any and all liability if their work is found to be negligent or defective. What a great job.... Basically a waste of time and money in my opinion. I'm sure there are one or two defective detectives out there that are worth their salt, but most fall short,regardless of what organization they belong to.

ME

Boon

@shanedn I hope I'm not too late. You can borrow my 1/2" fostapex crimp tool and prep tool and pex cutter, if you like. I can ship it out today and no rush returning it. PM me.

shanedn

@JUGHNE, as @Mark Eatherton said, their fine print pretty much says they can be as negligent as they want and not be liable for anything. I was about to contact an attorney as this seems like the entire point of getting an inspection until I read the fine print. It's really pathetic. I might be able to get my inspection money back, but that's about it (that reminds me that I need to send them a letter, in writing, to deal with that... gahhh). My realtor feels absolutely horrible for including him in his list of inspectors that he provided me. This one wasn't at the top of his list, but we needed a quick turnaround and he was available. Lesson learned!

@Boon, is this some sort of joke? I have a hard time believing there are still good people in this world . I might end up taking you up on that actually! I do have a pex cutter. It's a pretty cheap, basic one, but I think it'll cut through PEX-AL-PEX. I have it on my to-do list to test that out on a scrap piece of the Kitec I had seen in the attic. I have one more guy coming out soon to get me an estimate this week. But unless he his quote comes in surprisingly low, I think I've talked myself into tackling this. Plus, I might end up throwing floor radiant heat under the two bathrooms that have the always-cold tile floors . Again, thank you for your kindness! I'll reach out in a PM soon if I take you up on your offer!

MilanD

Just to throw it out there: did you have home warranty when you bought the house and is it still in force? Also, check if your regular home insurance may cover this. You have a documented failure, perhaps repair before it was to flood the house will be covered. Just a thought.

As to inspectors: a friend of mine bought a house that turned out to have major major mold issue and rotten floors from cats that used to pee on the floors. Inspector missed it. Completely. At any rate, insurance is covering most of it - major pita.

shanedn

Sadly I do not have any home warranty. My worry with going straight to insurance is I don't want to have my premium affected. If I can fix this for a couple grand all said and done, I think I'd rather deal with it out of pocket rather than risk it.

That sucks about your friend. At least the insurance is covering it. I'd definitely take plumbing issues over mold and cat urine. Both of those are horrible to deal with.

MilanD

Yes, me too - plumbing issues are easier to deal with for sure than all the mold, cat urine... ugh.... That inspector basically said the same thing - here's a refund and here's the small print... It was a major mess.

Don't know - I would still get a quote from a plumber to redo all this and see what the insurance says. Even if it went up a few hundred a year, experience drops after 3 years usually (that famous question when you are getting insurance 'if you had a loss in the last 3 years), and you could again shop around after 3 years. In the end, you won't have to submit the claim if you don't want to but it doesn't hurt to ask. A good insurance broker will know what the tendencies are among various insurers and could answer. We had a break-in a few years ago, electronics stolen to the tune of several grand. We filed the claim and our insurance did not go up, fwiw. Matter of fact, I combined car and house on the same carrier afterwards and all of it went down some 12% overall.

At least make sure you sign up for that class action that Mark mentioned above. Best of luck!

shanedn

@hot rod, I placed an order for the pex, pex->copper propress adapters, and a few other install parts yesterday. The last big order I need to place is for the valves. The only Viega pex->copper valve I can find is an ProPress->FTG valve:
http://www.viega.us/catalog/en_US/3.1_PEX_Press/Valves/Viega_ProPress_valve/32446.html

As I previously mentioned, I'm a bit green with working with copper. While I'm confident I can pull it off at this point, I just want to make sure I order the right parts. I'm assuming that if I go with the FTG fitting, that I'd have to use a coupler to connect it to the manifold. Like this:
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Elkhart-30900-ELKHART-1-2-Copper-Coupling

Am I on the right page or totally lost?

hot_rod

Seems like Viega would offer that valve in a regular sweat version, not sitting. That would save couplings and a bunch of solder joints.

If it is worth the effort maybe contact Dahl directly, I'm pretty sure they build those valves.

For good soldering, clean the tube and valve, a very small amount of flux, and most of the heat on the valve not tube.

Once the solder melts at the valve, take the heat away. get some tube and fittings and practice.

shanedn

@hot rod I sent out a message to Viega, and they don't offer anything other than the FTG. I just ended up ordering the valves and the couplings. Looks like I'll get good at soldering during this process . I've got everything ordered that I think I need, so I'll just cross my fingers for some warm weather in a few weekends and see how much I can do over a weekend.

Thanks everyone for the help! I'm sure I'll be back for more

shanedn

Hey all. I figured I would post an update on how things went with this project so far. I went ahead and repiped 4 main floor radiators last fall. I found that soldering was much less difficult than I expected. Every joint I made has worked flawlessly from the start. They aren't the most pretty, but they turned out decent. Here is the manifold:



As mentioned previously, I ended up removing the old Kitec fittings, sweat on new couplers and Viega valves. That part was definitely the most stressful as there is the plywood right behind. I ended up using a soldering cloth behind the fittings first, but when I saw how it sparkled and turned red with the almost direct flame, I got paranoid and cut a tin can in half and put that between the fitting and soldering cloth. It seemed to work really well, even if it was a hack . I only forgot to move the protection once (bottom left) and quickly was thankful for the water sprayer I had at the ready to cool down the slightly darkened wood. Oops!

As far as the results, it has been mostly successful. There is one radiator at the base of the stairs that the existing holes on the floor weren't directly lined up with the holes on the radiator, so the copper goes into the radiator at a slight angle. This ended up leaking. I haven't tried tightening the compression nuts more as I think I'm going to tear it apart and widen the floor holes a bit more to just get the copper going into the fittings straight. Other than that issue, everything else has been going great.

Once it warms up again in a couple of months, I plan to finish the rest of the radiators. I took care of the ones that had impending signs of failure during the first round. They also were the most difficult runs as there was part in the basement and part in the crawlspace. The rest of the runs will be in the full height basement thankfully.

Also, thanks a million to @Boon for borrowing me the Viega tools!

EBEBRATT-Ed

Nice job, you done good!!

hot_rod

Looks good. One suggestion would be to use the strut clamps that have a eflexible insert that allows expansion movement as that long header heats and cools

Here is one brand I have used

https://hydra-zorb.com