Buderus Logano G115 boiler set up

paula256

So we have this boiler that was put in 8 years ago. Very nice great boiler. New to us plumber (installers out of business - of course), doing a new hot water heater and takes a look at the "set up" and says it's really wrong and he can make it the way it should be and much more efficient. Cost is $1800. He says not up to code (the NYS code has changed), seems like he knows his stuff and really nice guy, but would lie for someone else to take a look. Anyone willing to look at some pics of the set up and let me know what you think?

HVACNUT

Did he say, or give a written estimate of what was not to code?
I don't see a Low Water Cutoff, and that was NYS code at the time of installation. Other than that, we need more info.
A LWCO doesn't need to be piped in.
You can replace the aquastat and well with a Hydrostat 3250 Plus or a Beckett Aquasmart, with their corresponding well. You'll need a longer than standard well for the G115.
What type of water heater is being installed? Indirect?
Can you post a pic of the zone relay(s)?
If an indirect is being used and there's no room for an additional zone in the relay board, the indirect wiring can go into the new aquastat.

Mad Dog_2

Where is the job? Mad dog

paula256

HVACNUT - We just had the electric hot water heater replaced. We have hard water (well) and the other one had been serviced (by someone else - 3 messages and no return calls), so called this new guy that was recommended on a reliable website (other guy was recommended too LOL). So while he was here I asked him to take a look at furnace as we are looking for reputable person to handle all of our needs (we are diligent and have cleaned and serviced every year) We do know that we can do an indirect water heater with this boiler, but at this point don't want to spend the $.

He mentioned no water cut off - that's disturbing.

He also mentioned 1" pipes and said that with the "Ferrari" of boilers a lot of heat was going up the chimney because the 1" pipes were less than ideal.

The air valve release is clearly clogged.

He said that the entire set up was not manufacturer recommendation and that the correct set up would make it more efficient. He sounded totally knowledgeable (but I know nothing, although learning fast!)

Would closer/additional pics help you help me?

Thanks so much for your input - it's appreciated! I want things done right, but don't want to spend $ unnecessarily. He said $1800 to get all correct.

Mad Dog - job is central NY, just SE of Syracuse.

Ironman

paula256 said:

He mentioned no water cut off - that's disturbing.

He also mentioned 1" pipes and said that with the "Ferrari" of boilers a lot of heat was going up the chimney because the 1" pipes were less than ideal.

The air valve release is clearly clogged.

He said that the entire set up was not manufacturer recommendation and that the correct set up would make it more efficient. He sounded totally knowledgeable (but I know nothing, although learning fast!)

What size is the G115? There's another digit after that tells the size.

newagedawn

please post seperate pics , it is better for us to sse the problems, i see wrong piping, the aquastat is fine no need to change that, i prefer those over the expensive logimatic and the LWCO is an option for you, after the install its a personal preference for you, in my opinion not needed, but that is debatable, the expansion tank is oversized,but its fine , wont hurt anything,.so sorry you had to go through this, too many plumbers that have no clue what they are doing,... doing HVAC work, giving the good techs a bad name, but one thats why they dont last and two, i always say sooner or later they will get my name,lol

HVACNUT

> @newagedawn said:
> please post seperate pics , it is better for us to sse the problems, i see wrong piping, the aquastat is fine no need to change that, i prefer those over the expensive logimatic and the LWCO is an option for you, after the install its a personal preference for you, in my opinion not needed, but that is debatable.
>
>
> A LWCO has been NYS code on residential boiler installations for at least 10 years. (The memory is the first thing to go.)
True, it's not going to prevent a company from servicing it, but it's cheap insurance compared to a new block. Changing the aquastat to one that also serves as a LWCO is the easiest, most cost effective way.
Also, some full service companies, for an additional cost, will offer block coverage. But not if it doesn't have a LWCO.

@paula256. The piping doesn't look exactly pretty, and I'm not surprised the installers are out of business. Their ARE a lot of things that should have been done at the time of the installation, but other than the LWCO, if its been keeping you comfortable, I wouldn't worry about it.

We don't discuss pricing here but the LWCO alone, installed, should cost less than 1/4 of the repair quote you got.
I'm still interested in knowing what was included in the (bring up to code) quote.

The 1" piping can limit the BTU output when multiple zones are calling at the same time (generously sized manifolds are correct) But the G115 only has a 1" tapping at the return to prevent thermal shock, so again, if it ain't broke...

paula256

Thanks for all the input. I'm having our code enforcement officer come by to look as well. Here are "better" pictures. Any additional info is appreciated.

Ironman

Ironman said:

paula256 said:

He mentioned no water cut off - that's disturbing.

He also mentioned 1" pipes and said that with the "Ferrari" of boilers a lot of heat was going up the chimney because the 1" pipes were less than ideal.

The air valve release is clearly clogged.

He said that the entire set up was not manufacturer recommendation and that the correct set up would make it more efficient. He sounded totally knowledgeable (but I know nothing, although learning fast!)

What size is the G115? There's another digit after that tells the size.

He's full of balony!

If your burner is at factory settings, the G115/4 has an output of 109k btus. Normally, American hydronic systems are designed around what we call a 20* delta T. Delta T simply means the temperature difference between the supply and return pipes. With a 109k btus, you would need 11 gpm flowing through the boiler to get a 20* delta T. A 1" pipe can carry 11 gpm at 4 feet per second velocity which is the maximum recommend for normal hydronic design. In other words, it's acceptable and will not effect the boiler or its efficiency in any away.

I see at least two zones on your system. If only one zone is calling, you would have substantially less than 11 gpm flowing through the boiler anyway. This is perfectly normal for this type of boiler (high mass) and system.

Boiler efficiency is driven by the RETURN water temp. If the flow through the boiler is less than 11 gpm, the delta T is widened. Which means the RETURN water temp would be LOWER and the boiler's efficiency would actually be INCREASED. But the reason we don't want the delta T to be higher is because of the SYSTEM's design. Depending upon how it's piped, and what type of radiators you have, some of them MAY not quite heat sufficiently if the flow is reduced.

According to Buderus' design manuals, it's perfectly ok for that boiler to have a wider delta T (less flow). A lot of European systems are designed around a 30* delta T, not a 20* like we do in America. Your contractor is totally wrong in what he told you. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and he has just enough to be dangerous. As has been said, 1" pipe may not be "ideal", but it's not wrong.

Your code official may know what components are required (like a LWCO), but it's unlikely that he will know about design and pipe sizing unless he has experience in that.

GW

Seems a bit excessive to repipe. Sure it can look prettier but why bother, I think the mechanical improvements would be tiny.

Now, did you say you wanted him to take on your maintenance? Hummm, that might get interesting. Some service guys are particular on what they take on, and others don't care at all.