Any trick to lining up pipes when replacing...? (Aaand - DONE!)

Paul48

Let's go back to the original problem. If for nothing other than future reference. You had plenty of run to create an offset, using 4- 45's. Stressing those old pipes like that can lead to....errrrr....problems, as you've become, painfully, aware. It can also create prblems, well away, from the initial problems, once you heat it.

GW

Paul, we have a phrase, 'too close syndrome', how could he have used 45's, you mean making a bunch of offsets to make it line up? I'd rather torque it like he is doing and deal with the aftermath. It's just bad luck---he can fix it.

Something moved and or settled in the last several decades; it's not his fault.

MilanD

> @Paul48 said:
> Let's go back to the original problem. If for nothing other than future reference. You had plenty of run to create an offset, using 4- 45's. Stressing those old pipes like that can lead to....errrrr....problems, as you've become, painfully, aware. It can also create prblems, well away, from the initial problems, once you heat it.

Paul, I'm not following this. 45s, where? Instead of the straight run like before? The repiping was done to replace existing run in the same way keeping with original measures prior to cutting it out. As was mentioned in one of the suggestions above, my mistake was not to brace everything up and reinforce/add hangers to keep what's there firmly in place when I started dismantling it. Lesson learned, that's for sure. It's all tuition.

Fwiw, that 1" drip was, for decades and before I started getting it all to function as it should, packed with dried up crud, thus not functional. I'm sure that's what also added to the original valve connection rusting out. It too held condensate.

As to the drip rusting, it went into a 17c and had no way to blow it down, thus it was essentially a wet return with those threads sitting in slushy mud for decades. This, I am certain, added to it corroding as it did. On top of it, stressing it when the horizontal 2-1/2" pipe was cut didn't help. On a side note, I added blow down valves to all those drips last year, so as long as these are blew down every month or so, this will no longer be a problem.

At any rate, I added 1 hanger and retightened the existing one. I will probably add one more hanger on that pipe. As to the fitting and the new pipe, I actually think of going old school with some cotton wick rope as it expands when wet, and also use plenty of pipe/gasket dope and perhaps a few turns of blue monster. Time will tell. At least, I can now isolate that main with a working valve and have it worked on without taking the entire heating plant off line should it be necessary down the line.

Paul48

OK.......I finished talking to myself Best Wishes

GW

I think everyone's opinion is good, helps us think, I just think 4 45's would be the death of me. Ugly pipe syndrome.

Paul48

The "Big Hammer" technique kills me, as well.

MilanD

I still don't get where to put them exactly. 45s on that straight run would create possibility for water hammer, imo, as the run would have more spaces for hanging up the condensate, no? Also, it's back to its original dimensions. The reason I braced things with the 2x4 was to help take the stress out of the union when tightening it. That was all. I did this without a helper and an extra set of hands. Cheers to you as well.

Paul48

My point was that there are alternatives. Condensate shouldn't be an issue, with a drip right next to it. It looks as though your original problem was caused by the mis-alignment of the pipes. I don't think securing them before you started the job would have helped. I'm not being a wise guy. I'm just a machinist. I've run a lot of pipe. I've worked on some very large and expensive equipment. There's times when brute force is absolutely necessary, as a last resort. Let me ask you this......If the 4 footer with a cheater didn't seal that union, what was the plan?

MilanD

Good point. Since I was pretty much able to align the union by hand and a lever, I did not doubt it would not seal. My problem was that I worked at it alone so 2x4s were the extra set of hands - nothing was being banged into submission. I also discovered (thus the title of this thread), that the "straight" pipe was not always straight. 6x threads, plus a valve, things start pointing in directions not always level. If it didn't seat and seal, I would have probably backed out a half turn from each end of the fitting.

I'm sure you all have way more experience doing all this. That's why I'm here sharing, so all of us who know less have a chance to learn. Anyhow...

You know, my mom and my dad both came up from nothing. Dad was an orphan. They both ended their careers as some of the most respected people in their fields (engineers, mechanical and architectural). One of the things they taught me is to never be afraid to fail in public, the other - to always keep going.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll post the rest of the repair once done.

Fred

I think you'll be fine @MilanD. As I said, in an earlier post, I think that drip cracked, at the threads just from being old and probably weakened by time and rust, from the inside. It simply gave way from the main being jostled around a bit. In any case, if the pipe has any stress on it that causes a problem when the pipes heat up and expand, as I always say: :It is what it is" and you spend a little more time fixing it by taking a fitting off, letting the pipe rest where it wants to, with no stress on it, position it where you get the pitch you need and tie it back together with whatever fittings it takes. No point going through all of that until you have no other choice. Over a hundred years, things settle, some rot out, others don't move. You adjust to the circumstances, just like they do. That's life.

MilanD

Thanks @Fred . That is exactly what happened with that 1" drip.

I really don't expect issues with expansion. Expension will go in the direction from which the pipe came when it was loose. If anything, heat will release it a bit. Then again, just as you said, anything else comes up, I'll deal with it then.

Thanks again!

EBEBRATT-Ed

Any time you work on that old stuff you (or any of us) can get a surprise... or a leak. I usually have pretty good luck with it. Everyone has their own opinions...and their entitled. I just know what works for me.

1.Brace it up or put hangers in before taking apart.

2.Instead of pounding fittings apart or using huge wrenches and cheaters (and risking damage to things you want to save) I make a few cuts with an angle grinder with a cutting disk and then drive an old screwdriver into the cut to snap the fittings apart (if their cast iron)

3. measure the old pipe you take out and replace with the same length new pipe.

Frequently when you cut something apart there is some strain on it and it springs apart ...or pulls closer together. This can change the alignment.

Clean the old threads with a tap, die or wire brush if you can.

Me, I use Teflon tape and Rectorseal "TRUE BLUE". I dope the inside threads especially when connecting to old stuff.

The dope can says to dope the inside 1 1/4" and up.

stay away from Chinese fittings (unions especially) if you can.

300# or Dart type unions are better than standard 150# unions

JMHO

BobC

All of this reminds of a quote I heard on NCIS from Ducky -

"If you find yourself going through hell, keep going!"

You found yourself in plumbing hell and you just kept going forward, with that attitude I'm sure you'll solve any problem you come across with a little help from your friends here.

I have a lot of respect for folks that run pipe on their own, keep up the good work.

Bob

MilanD

Thanks @BobC, I appreciate the encouragement.

Abracadabra

if you are worried the threads got too damaged, you could throw some JB weld on there and then run the tap on the fitting.

MilanD

@Abracadabra that is a great suggestion with JB Weld. I take it you did it before with success. Thanks for sharing - didn't cross my mind. Was it putty stick or 2 tubes? How much you prefer that vs. doing old school cotton wicking, Hercules Block and some Teflon for good measure? My 1" tap just arrived (can I get an Am(azo/)en?), so I can go both ways. Was planning cotton wick and Hercules Block pipe sealant.

My cut is not as severe as the one in this video (you can forward to about 7:30)

https://youtu.be/pFDw4kfaPu4

GW

yes! sticking the sawzall in there is a very delicate process. When I am doing this on a vertical connection i use extreme caution; it takes time to find the exact depth of your cut. If it's a horizontal connection I just make the cut 'not on the bottom where the water is', usually above the center line--that way a ding in the female thread it won't haunt me.

MilanD

GW said:

yes! sticking the sawzall in there is a very delicate process. When I am doing this on a vertical connection i use extreme caution; it takes time to find the exact depth of your cut. If it's a horizontal connection I just make the cut 'not on the bottom where the water is', usually above the center line--that way a ding in the female thread it won't haunt me.

Thanks @GW - in my case, it was tuition The big fittings I was very careful and it took some banging to get them out. This one incher, the blade went through like butter. You live, you learn (at least, that's the idea!).

JUGHNE

There is something to be said about just starting with the sawall and then finishing with barehanded blade......you can sometimes feel the blade touch the female threads. FWIW

MilanD

JUGHNE said:

There is something to be said about just starting with the sawall and then finishing with barehanded blade......you can sometimes feel the blade touch the female threads. FWIW

Great tip!

Abracadabra

MilanD said:

@Abracadabra that is a great suggestion with JB Weld. I take it you did it before with success. Thanks for sharing - didn't cross my mind. Was it putty stick or 2 tubes?

2 part in the tubes.

MilanD

> @Abracadabra said:
> @Abracadabra that is a great suggestion with JB Weld. I take it you did it before with success. Thanks for sharing - didn't cross my mind. Was it putty stick or 2 tubes?
>
> 2 part in the tubes.

Thanks!

HydroNiCK

1)Use a come-along to get the pipes to line up. If the pipe is only a little off have a helper push/pull it into position and once the collar is caught have him shake it as your tightening.

2) Unless your trying to take off a fitting on an edge of a cliff that harbor freight wrench should be fine. That wrench will be even more fine if you add Ridgid parts to it. Buy the wrench for cheap at Harbor freight then order Ridgid jaw and pin assembly. Remember to always hold back.

3) Get a torch....you will save yourself a lot of time and underwear by heating up the fitting then trying to loosen it. Between the paint and homemade red lead dope, rust, and sediment, they used a along time ago they are hard to loosen.

MilanD

Finally had time and all the tools to get this finished. I opted to use cotton wick on the threads, blue monster tape and some Hercules Blue Block sealant/dope.

First, ran the tap through the threads, looked at the cut and it was about 1/2 the depth. Thus, I opted to try getting it done without having to use JB Weld. If it doesn't seal, I'll redo with JB Weld.

I first wrapped the wick into the pipe threads, then followed up with 3-4 turns of blue monster tape, and finally the Blue Block by Hercules. Pipe went in really tight, and I tightened it about 7 turns or so. When it started giving me strong resistance with 2ft wrench, I called it good enough.

I'm letting the blue block set for few days over the weekend, and will fire up the steam next week to test it. I think it'll be just fine.

Added a hanger and tightened the existing one. Removed the 2x4 bracing - all pipes stayed in place.

Fingers crossed - feeling good about it. All that's left is getting a bracket for the actuator for that zone valve and attaching it on there. This is not urgent - that zone never closes, so it' not really necessary either. I may even remove it all together.

Thanks all for your suggestions! Here's to a new heating season in a few weeks!

ChrisJ

Are you having fun yet?

MilanD

ChrisJ said:

Are you having fun yet?

Labor of love, 100%!

MilanD

MilanD said:

ChrisJ said:

Are you having fun yet?

Labor of love, 100%!

BTW, have a 1" connected rad that has a leaking nipple going into the valve. Small small leak, a rag tied around it dries before any water drips out. That will be a fun project for next few weeks (when I can get some time). Have a new valve, nipples of various sizes, this tap to clean out any old ci fittings... heaven, I tell you!

Kahooli

Nice work. Looks like my own project Ill be posting about soon. I need to hurry up and finish... it's gonna be chilly soon

MilanD

Finally got to descaling the boiler and firing it afterwards checking the repair. That 1" drain is tight: so - cotton wick, blue monster tape and Hercules Blue Block does it.

My other post on the leak talks about that project. Here is the video of descaling if anyone is interested in the set up.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/LPLiWvqq0uicHxpuyhi6UkBqstL6ImtR5i0DbHUeSvV

Yay - heating season is almost here!!

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Guys: That video is OK and what I learned from it was the hacksaw treatment of the spud...........nice. But I'm usually tense when I'm on the job and have no time for a hacksaw. My new Milwaukee cordless sawsall is tits and I use it with abandon and almost always cut a groove in the female threads. Not to worry.

I think they give you a tube of this stuff when you purchase a HTP Superstor indirect water heater. It's anaerobic and will seal ANYTHING. I first tested it on a Sloan Flushometer with bunged up threads - hand tight and it held. Have used it for years with nary a problem and always keep plenty on my truck.

http://www.hernon.com/search-for-adhesives/459/Dripstop 923

MilanD

@Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

That looks like it's pretty amazing stuff. Where do you get it? Online info is quite sparse.

Paul48

Did you try clicking on the find a distributor button at the top of that page?

MilanD

@Paul48 - yes, closest distributor in Ohio is 3 hours away from me. I'll call them but someone else got to have this localy, surely. I'll call the manufacturer too if needed. It's quite strange there are no online purchasing options. This looks like an amazing product.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

When I can't find the Hernon product, I get the Superdope. Both are anaerobic and work the same way.

https://www.argco.com/piping-chemicals/super-dope-anaerobic-thread-sealant.html

MilanD

> @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:
> When I can't find the Hernon product, I get the Superdope. Both are anaerobic and work the same way.
>
> https://www.argco.com/piping-chemicals/super-dope-anaerobic-thread-sealant.html

Thanks @Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes ! Good price for this one on Amazon!