Any trick to lining up pipes when replacing...? (Aaand - DONE!)

MilanD

As a hands-on kind of guy, I've replaced this rusted out 2-1/2" valve and pipe (pic 1) and it's now almost done (pic 2). The replacement pipes are not quite lining up though, and I need to make 2 more turns to get the union to close tight. I'm planning to wedge a couple of 2x4 against ceiling to line up the 2 (pic 3), and perhaps use a ratchet tie-downs to direct them to line up.

Before I do it tomorrow, anyone else has any other tricks/ideas? I'm trying to get this done myself without a helper. I'm baffled that pipes that fit last week do not fit this week. Anyhow...

Thanks!

Jamie Hall

looking at the elbow and the smaller pipe over it at the left end of the assembly, it looks to me as though the elbow turning down has moved left (as seen in the picture) a bit -- perhaps half an inch. This will have pulled the ends of the pipe at the union apart about that much, and also cocked the end of the new pipe at the union up a bit.

Murphy is alive and well and living in your basement.

Since the pipe seems to have moved slightly, I'd attack it by pullng it back together as you have suggested with the ratchet straps -- or a come along -- and use the 2 by 4s from the ceiling to guide it into place vertically and horizontally.

However, that said, I'd then also check the joint (what is it?) and the pipes at the bottom of that big pipe dropping down at the left end of the picture, as that may be strained...

MilanD

Thanks Jamie! Yes, good ol' Murphy...

When I undid that old union - yes, I in fact hammered it off with a cold chisel and 3lb hammer (thought at first to save the nipple but it was so rusted below the old union, it had to go), the pipe on the right dropped down some 1.5 - 2 inches, then engaging the bracing/hanger. It was on a closed nipple there, replacement now being 6"... Same on the other side: old pipe before the valve was also a short nipple that's now 6". I'm wondering if it now being longer 6" nipples is making it more difficult to bend or twist the whole assembly down on that left side of the union... It has some flex when I lean on it so o know that side can come down some if I wedge a 2x4 against the ceiling. The other side on the right will almost have to twist: nipple down but what's not seen - up (what's not seen is another 2-1/2 x 4" el, then 4" x 24 pipe going up, then an el to a main that's also 4", parallel with the ceiling, 90* from the repair section, and going straight for 25 ft into the wall. I have some room to rock and twist it too, I'm just short of hands trying tonget this done solo.

On the left side, that 4" vertical, below what the pic shows under the 2-1/2 x 4 el, is a the 4" riser from the 4" header on a 4" tee - original 1920s from the looks of it. That's probably 1,000lb+ of header and near boiler piping attached to the boiler and other 2 risers/zones. It could have been flexed originally and has now flexed back some...

My biggest fear in all this is breaking the union, or worse, as I tightened it as much as I could with a 3ft pipe wrench. If unsuccessful, I may call on a helper or the friends from the mechanical comp that put in the boiler.

What can I say? I love Murphy, but also, oh the pride of getting it done myself.

MilanD

...And I may need a 4ft wrench...

MilanD

Here is the header setup. You can see the way pipes go from boiler up from the header, and the one replaced on 90* across the boiler, up to ceiling then over on another 90*

Ironman

Welcome to our world!

If you've got the union started, just keep on tightening. You may have to do a little at a time, but it will come together - provided that you didn't shorten the pipe that was replaced. And yes, you need a 4 foot pipe wrench. Harbor freight has cheap knock offs that are fine for occasional useage.

MilanD

Thanks @Ironman ! I thought it was me You should have seen my lever setup to get the nut going, operated by my left foot (there is a joke in there somewhere, I'm sure)!

I think I'm ok length wise. Waited to measure that last pipe after all other fittings were in place. Have a 1/4" gap so I could slide it in while pushing the other side away. Pipes do have some flex to them, I'm just worried about sheering off something by brute force.

Didn't take a photo: the union nut is flush on top side and some 1/8" off on the bottom. So bottom of the right nipple is a bit sloped away (or left one is high, depending on what's used as the reference. More I'm thinking about it, I think I'll also brace up on the right (main) side, pushing it all up, then 2x4 down on the nipples to align, then come along if needed. Then I'll install new hangers to keep the pressure away from the fittings.

Thank you again! Good to know it wasn't just me having issues aligning things. Drove me nuts yesterday - I mean, it was all lines up before.

Thanks also for harbor freight tip! I'll check if they have them in stock.

MilanD

Well, Harbor Freight no longer sells 48" pipe wrenches. But, Northern Tool online does. Cheap too, with delivery.

EBEBRATT-Ed

sometimes the crappy fittings available "CHINA" etc don't make in the correct amount or are tapped crooked at the factory. What you replaced should have fit perfectly with good fittings, but we all get surprised occasionally.

Sometimes before you take something apart look at it closely. If you think it might sag and give you a problem you might add hangers ahead of time or prop it up with a temporary 2 x 4 or two.

Just a few suggestions. What you replaced looks good!

MilanD

Thanks @EBEBRATT-Ed !

I didn't get to this today - thank you for suggestions and the compliment. I was not expecting the twisting movement. Sagging yes, but not twisting. As I planned to have to use a lever, I got it put together - what I didn't expect was pipes misaligning. Will build wedges and braces with 2x4s to get it lined up after the fact, and will definitely build bracing on any future large pipe work (like that other riser with the zone valve that's dripping).

I did check the new union for tight fit before installing it. That's one thing I suggest everyone does. Learned to check all supplies one time when I had a nipple with bad threads on one side. That stopped me once for an entire afternoon - had to drive and replace it. Anyhow, this replacement union is definitely smaller and less beefy than the old one I had to break off. It ain't Ward, I'll say that much.

Much respect to all you pros. This is some hard labor. And thanks all for your suggestions!

j a_2

MilanD said:

Well, Harbor Freight no longer sells 48" pipe wrenches. But, Northern Tool online does. Cheap too, with delivery.

Not a prayer I would put my strength into a 48 inch cheap harbor freight wrench....it's a recipe for disaster.....Serious injury can result

MilanD

j a said:

MilanD said:

Well, Harbor Freight no longer sells 48" pipe wrenches. But, Northern Tool online does. Cheap too, with delivery.

Not a prayer I would put my strength into a 48 inch cheap harbor freight wrench....it's a recipe for disaster.....Serious injury can result

I hear you. Though, for occasional use, why not. Here's this video - torture test of their wrench - seems like this one held up ok:
https://youtu.be/UbVk0eBBcss

Comments on the video itself are priceles! LOL

ChrisJ

Both of my 48's are Harbor Freight crap and they work just fine.
Are they as good as a Ridgid? Of course not. Would I recommend someone that does this for a living, and uses their tools all the time to buy them? No. But they're fine for DIYing.

I'd also never use a cheater pipe on one.


For aligning pipes, if you have the proper threader you can thread crooked threads.

If the pipe is a bit too long, you could thread it deeper, assuming you won't bottom out in the fitting.

I'm almost positive the Ridgid 65R-C will thread crooked threads. My 65R-TC will not because it forces it self to be centered aka (True Centering).

MilanD

ChrisJ said:

I'd also never use a cheater pipe on one.

Oh, I broke my Husky aluminum 24" with a cheater, but it was my fault - didn't do it properly. I found that if you can get a thick and long enough pipe (2" usually works) that can go over the handle all the way to the wrench head by the nut itself, where the wrench is the thickest, you should be fine. Snapping off the middle of the handle is quite another thing. Like what the guy in the video did. I was waiting for him to faceplant that tractor!

unclejohn

I use a 2' ridged and a 4' piece of 3" pipe. Also MilanD it looks like you need a few more things in your basement.

MilanD

unclejohn said:

Also MilanD it looks like you need a few more things in your basement.

Yep - walls are still visible

Danny Scully

@ChrisJ is right, you can make crooked threads with the Ridgid 65R-C. You can also make any size nipple with it too!

MilanD

Thanks guys. Unless I'm missing something, 65R-C goes to 2". My crooked pipes are 2-1/2.

Danny Scully

You are correct, sorry I love my Ridgid 65R-C and lost focus on the actual thread

ChrisJ

How is it our fault you used the wrong size pipes?

BobC

@unclejohn My basement walls have been MIA for decades - looks like Fibber Maggee's closet.

I told my niece that whoever wants the house when I'm gone will have to deal with the cellar. There are almost 40 years worth of tools and treasure down there.

Bob

MilanD

What can I say, I like 'em big.

MilanD

I mean - pipes... You know, EDR capacity and all that...

MilanD

I mean - to keep you warm at night...

Steamhead

Surrrrrrrrre............

MilanD

It looks like my plan worked, and 4ft pipe wrench was definitely a must. The one coming from Northern Tool is not bad at all, has a nice spring action on the jaw itself and seems a bit better quality jaw spring than the 3 ft wrench from Harbor Freight.

At any rate, I was able to line-up the nut and slowly bring the fitting in. I will add some hangers next, before I remove the bracing. I'm planning on firing the boiler tomorrow to make sure we are tight. I'm unsure what I'll do if it's not tight enough as I've tighten it to the point where nothing is budging and I'm able to rotate the entire fitting around the pipes

Teflon tape on the nut threads is only to help the nut slide better on and off (if ever needed to come off). I made sure not to get Teflon on the mating surfaces of the union.

EBEBRATT-Ed

"never seize" works good on unions or on anything metal that is subjected to heat, corrosion etc.

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

"never seize" works good on unions or on anything metal that is subjected to heat, corrosion etc.

What about condenser fan motor shafts where the propeller goes on?

MilanD

> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> "never seize" works good on unions or on anything metal that is subjected to heat, corrosion etc.

Yeah. I have a jug of it, just not with me at a time... Bought it for this exact purpose, and left it at home... Never made it to my tool box. Don't you love it when that happens?

Jackmartin

The first rule to using. unions is they "kiss" when put together that means you have to have all the pipes lining up aka.everything is plum and level. The person who installed this is what we call in Canada a shovel face, you want to dig the sucker up and hit him in the face with the shovel. You have a classic case of a smuck who never learned or cared about his work ,after all ,he was never coming back! This abuse with the lumber makes me cringe: it is still warm enough to take the offending piping out and using a square and god forbid a level and make everything line up. In the event you do not have the experience to do this ,contact a real steamfitter ,you know they went to school for 5 years and have him or her ( we have a couple of excellent girls now) help you to do it correctly .We are not carpenters, wood is never used in the steamfitting community. Remember what the dead mans shirt says :do the job to perfection ,this will not pass the smell test.You see immediately the job was done by a non trained person. All the best from Canada ---- remember be proud of every job you finish it is good for the soul. Jack

MilanD

@Jackmartin - please read the whole thread.

MilanD

Next time I'll try James Bond approach: stirred, not shaken (pipes). Union is dry. New leak sprung. Fun never ends...



https://youtu.be/k0GFI4PuRCs

ChrisJ

Nothing is easy.

MilanD

ChrisJ said:

Nothing is easy.

Right?! @#(%#(@!!!

JUGHNE

I turned the audio up expecting to hear what you just typed....or some bleeps.

Looks like broken male threads on that small pipe?
Might unscrew most of it and a tap may clean it up....I have had the luck of that working for 1 1/4". A 100 mile drive and a $70 Rigid tap (used once BTW) got me out of the dog house last December.
Cost of doing business.

MilanD

JUGHNE said:

I turned the audio up expecting to hear what you just typed....or some bleeps.

Looks like broken male threads on that small pipe?
Might unscrew most of it and a tap may clean it up....I have had the luck of that working for 1 1/4". A 100 mile drive and a $70 Rigid tap (used once BTW) got me out of the dog house last December.
Cost of doing business.

Sorry @JUGHNE - no expletives in the video... I just kept grinning at it in disbelief... :0

I really don't look forward to having to cut and chisel that one out... I'm seriously considering just doing the 2-part putty and some rubber seal tape and clamps. I have a few repairs like that on the main that have been there for a while. Ugh...

If to replace, the idea to retap is great! Looks like that tear is in line with the threads - so I'm expecting it will just shear off... Do you think I can use the tap to just re cut - or rather clean out the threads without having to remove the broken pipe that'll remain inside the fitting? Not having to try and cut it inside threads with the reciprocating saw would be so awesome and I really don't feel too hot about dismantling this hole 2-1/2" run to replace that 2-1/2 x 1 tee... Oh, fun...

I'll pick the tap next week. Thankfully, we are to remain in the 70s and even a few days in the 80s, for at least the next 2 weeks so it's no rush... dang it...

Danny Scully

You're flirting with danger @MilanD! At some point, you're gunna have to call in one of us professionals Honesty though, here is your approach. Cut the 1-1/4 with a 4-wheel cutter. Use your 4 foot and back that 2-1/2 tee out. Then, use the 65R I was talking about to thread the 1-1/4 in place and rebuild.

JUGHNE

If those are proper cut threads, that looks to be half buried or so.
If you cut off, and then try to unscrew, the pipe may collapse and maybe get part of the threads out.
There are easy outs that fit inside a 1" pipe, with luck it might unscrew. Or cut it off nearly flush, saw a section of pie out of it then try the easy out. The tap would clean up the threads.

In my case with the 1 1/4", it was about 10" off the floor and pointing down. The top remains of the pipe had rusted away and the tap did clean that up. But if you have solid pipe left in there the tap won't remove or recut it.

Where does the 1" drop down to?
Maybe when you cut that it might spring apart or pinch your blade. It may have had something to do with the union mating together.

Fred

Don't you just hate it when that crap happens? It may well be that the extra tension you put on the new pipe, tightening the couplings up and get it to line up stressed that old pipe right at the threads.

MilanD

@Danny Scully @JUGHNE

Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Easy out, tap, cuts into the fitting.... I'll think about the plan of attack over the weekend. Some great stuff from you. Thank you.

That 1" is at the start of one of 3 mains, after the zone valve (all of which you saw me replace). It's the condensate drip into a 17c, across and then down into the condensate return tank.

Now that I think of it, it's quite possible that the darn pipe cracked when I was chiseling that 2-1/2" nipple out of the fitting. It definitely took some abuse while I was hammering away. I don't think it was from the union/coupling, pipes have quite a lot of play on the right of the fitting. But who knows now. I should have been more careful about that in addition to caring for threads inside that tee.

Well, it's all tuition, right? At least I'll have some nice tools after I'm done... If I ever get done.... With how it is developing, watch me have to go all the way to that 2-1/2 x 4" ell!

Calling in the pros will be my last resort. Not sure my pride can take it tho... jk.

MilanD

Well, I opted for trying to unscrew the pipe out. It sheared right off, and I was left with a stub, pretty much flush with the fitting... As I had to order easy-out and wait for it over the weekend, I decided to try to cut and chisel the thing out. Using some specialty chisels and a reciprocating saw, I was able to crumble it inwards and unscrew it out. I made a small cut from the inside the pipe with the sawsall (had to grind down the back side of the blade on the bench grinder to get it to fit inside the fitting).

Without wanting to, I did nip into the threads, but not all the way. Now, before getting the replacement pipe back in, I am waiting for 1" tap to arrive to clean out the threads and give it a good surface to join with the pipe. Once all is cleaned out and re-threaded I don't believe I'll have a leak - afterall, this is 8oz max pressure system, and I'll give it a plenty of blue monster tape and pipe dope and screw it in pretty tight.

Here's what it looks like before, during and after the extraction. I'm expecting to have it done on Monday. We are staying in the 90s through the middle of next week, then 80s and 70s through 10/6...

https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/2uZwoVshctkxkvOaHkM9jJuxbQuAR8SKpZQw3qnfCbd

Album with the entire project (still in progress) is here:
https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/3hcyVZuzwxd2ZsM1Ds2nAlWbvxFsqHJsMWcTrI7Q4C5