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Measuring Liquid Nitrogen

AnnetteM
AnnetteM Member Posts: 2
Hello

I need some help with measuring Liquid Nitrogen. We have 1500 gallon tank. When the nitrogen is delivered, the qty is measured in SCF. There is a gauge on the tank is reading in %. I thought this meant % of gallons. However, I've learned the % is Ins WC. How do you convert Ins WC to SCF?

I want to verify the qty I'm being billed. I believe our company has been over charged.
As an example if the gauge was reading 41.80% Ins WC and was then filled to 97.90% WC, how many SCF should I have received?

Thank you for your help!

Annette

Comments

  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,849
    Shape of tank?
    Canucker
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,016
    I am thinking that the Nitrogen in the tank is saturated that is the tank always contains both liquid nitrogen and nitrogen gas.

    It's just like a tank of refrigerant. I don't think you can know what's in the tank unless you can weigh the tank which may not be practical.

    Gage reading will probably be no better than an approximation
  • AnnetteM
    AnnetteM Member Posts: 2
    The shape of the tank is an upright cylinder approx 15ft tall.
    The tank can hold 1500 gallons. I'm familiar with converting gallons to SCF, but not WC to SCF. thanks
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    Well. I just Googled SCF (supercritical fluid). It is any substance at a temperature and pressure above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not exist.
    I'm no chemist, but to me SCF is not a measurement of weight, mass, volume or quantity. It's merely a factor of density of a particular substances temperature and pressure. Obviously W.C. is a measurement of pressure, but I don't know how a gauge can convert X pressure and Y temperature into SCF. Therefore, I think using SCF as a quantity for billing doesn't seem correct. Although I could be completely out of my depth on this topic.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    I think you need to contact Will Hunting.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,765
    edited July 2017
    This "SCF" is not Standard Cubic Feet??

    How about a picture of that gauge on the tank?
    Just curious, what are you freezing?
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    edited July 2017
    > @JUGHNE said:
    > This "SCF" is not Standard Cubic Feet??
    >
    >
    >>See, I knew I was out my depth.
    It sounded smart though, right?
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 713
    edited July 2017
    How full is your tank when it's full? Is 1500 gallons the size of the tank or is that the maximum fill? I would be surprised if your WC reading wasn't the %full the tank is.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,765
    edited July 2017
    Dude, yea I was really impressed....I really started to feel out of my own depth.....actually I still am.
    Would the % of fill gauge simply show the liquid in the lower part of the tank, like LPG.
    But in the LP case the truck has a gallons meter to bill you with.

    That is why seeing the gauge is needed IMO.
    The ID plate that is usually welded to a tank of this sorts would give some clues to actual capacity.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,765
    Another thought.....have seen WC meaning "water capacity" IIRC.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,866
    edited July 2017
    I think it's clear no one on this forum knows what the standard practice is when measuring a tank full of liquid nitrogen.

    :p


    Though I suspect @EBEBRATT-Ed was right, there's no real way to tell how full a tank is from a pressure gauge. You either need a scale or a float, similar to a LPG tank. Pressure is going to change with ambient conditions and not so much with the level as long as there's some liquid in the tank.

    Either way, if you're trying to dispute a delivery, you need someone that knows without a doubt how this is done, and I don't see you getting that here. :(
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 713
    > @ChrisJ said:
    > I think it's clear no one on this forum knows what the standard practice is when measuring a tank full of liquid nitrogen.
    >
    > :p
    >
    >
    > Though I suspect @EBEBRATT-Ed was right, there's no real way to tell how full a tank is from a pressure gauge. You either need a scale or a float, similar to a LPG tank. Pressure is going to change with ambient conditions and not so much with the level as long as there's some liquid in the tank.
    >
    > Either way, if you're trying to dispute a delivery, you need someone that knows without a doubt how this is done, and I don't see you getting that here. :(

    Let's wait until my question gets answered before we decide nobody knows how to measure a tank ;)
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    Gordy
  • Wardo
    Wardo Member Posts: 8
    I suspect its a differential pressure gage reading percent of full capacity.

    Why don't you ask your supplier to provide a full explanation?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,309
    I assume this tank is a gas pak of some sort, they slowly outgas nitrogen between the inside and outside tank (think bottle in a bottle) to keep the inside tank very cold and at low pressure.

    I used to deal with gas paks that were aboutb6 ft high and 30" in diameter, we paid by the amount of liquid nitrogen (in pounds) when it was delivered. If you left that tank on the loading dock over a hot weekend (in the sun) the tank would be 30% less full come Monday morning, Note that all of this info is about 25 years old but thats the way things were in the early 90's.

    Does the user own this tank or is it the property of the supplier of the nitrogen.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,866
    BobC said:

    I assume this tank is a gas pak of some sort, they slowly outgas nitrogen between the inside and outside tank (think bottle in a bottle) to keep the inside tank very cold and at low pressure.

    I used to deal with gas paks that were aboutb6 ft high and 30" in diameter, we paid by the amount of liquid nitrogen (in pounds) when it was delivered. If you left that tank on the loading dock over a hot weekend (in the sun) the tank would be 30% less full come Monday morning, Note that all of this info is about 25 years old but thats the way things were in the early 90's.

    Does the user own this tank or is it the property of the supplier of the nitrogen.

    Bob

    Gas pak?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-pak


    I think you meant vacuum flask or "Cryogenic storage dewar" ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_storage_dewar


    The 1500 gallon tanks I see, appear to be high pressure tanks.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Canucker said:

    > @ChrisJ said:

    > I think it's clear no one on this forum knows what the standard practice is when measuring a tank full of liquid nitrogen.

    >

    > :p

    >

    >

    > Though I suspect @EBEBRATT-Ed was right, there's no real way to tell how full a tank is from a pressure gauge. You either need a scale or a float, similar to a LPG tank. Pressure is going to change with ambient conditions and not so much with the level as long as there's some liquid in the tank.

    >

    > Either way, if you're trying to dispute a delivery, you need someone that knows without a doubt how this is done, and I don't see you getting that here. :(



    Let's wait until my questiongets answered before we decide nobody knows how to measure a tank ;)

    That's because @chrisj can't answer it, so he assumes no one else can.

    http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/files/pdf/company/safetygram-7.pdf

    http://www.uigi.com/n2_conv.html
    ChrisJHVACNUT
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,866
    edited July 2017
    Negative.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    The links have pertinent information. The right questions have been asked, and need answered.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,866
    Gordy said:

    The links have pertinent information. The right questions have been asked, and need answered.

    My mistake dear friend.

    Please help the OP out with some answers.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,596
    I still like my comment the best. If I was a Bostonian, I'd be "Wicked smaat".
    Gordy
  • Wardo
    Wardo Member Posts: 8

    Pleass see the last diagram at the bottom:

    http://www.orangeresearch.com/why-differential-pressure-gauges.php

    Annette is probably long gone by now.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,309
    @ChrisJ The supplier we bought the nitrogen referred to it as a gas pak, as I said that was 25 years ago. This is an image of the tanks I worked with, your right about it being a cryogenic tank of some sort. If you store liquid nitrogen at room temperature in a single wall tank i will be at well over 1000 PSIG, it would take a very heavily built tank to store 1500 gallons of it. I remember the empty 50# [email protected] tanks weighing over 150 # for the tank alone.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,866
    edited July 2017
    BobC said:

    @ChrisJ The supplier we bought the nitrogen referred to it as a gas pak, as I said that was 25 years ago. This is an image of the tanks I worked with, your right about it being a cryogenic tank of some sort. If you store liquid nitrogen at room temperature in a single wall tank i will be at well over 1000 PSIG, it would take a very heavily built tank to store 1500 gallons of it. I remember the empty 50# [email protected] tanks weighing over 150 # for the tank alone.

    Bob

    My dry Nitrogen tank is heavy and that's only 60 cubic feet @ 2200 PSI.

    I can't imagine a 1500 gallon version but I suppose it's possible.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited July 2017
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    I worked at a facility where we piped 1000PSI all over a 150 acre site. Semi tankers every day to keep up with demand so they installed a gadget about the size of a giant farm silo to make N2 gas on site. Maximum flow 70,000 SCFH . Liquid storage 15,840 GAL. or 1,475 000 SCF. Also piped a coaxial liquid N2 system , 1/2" inside 1" if I remember with a deep vacuum maintained in the annular space. Inside -325ºF outside room temp amazing .
    bob